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Feminism: sex and gender

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WinterDeWinter · 18/09/2023 15:07

On that thread @Ereshkigalangcleg posted this and again - it could have been either one of them.
"I met a young woman in the early 2000s as part of my work, Savile licked all the way up her bare arm (she was wearing a short sleeve shirt as part of her uniform, and he pretended to kiss her hand first) in front of all her colleagues and the public at a work event he was officially opening, and of course everyone just pretended not to notice."

Page 23 | Biggest news story: Part 3 | Mumsnet

Right so it’s being described as Baroque because whoever is writing it is from the 18th century and can’t figure out how to upload the story

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/_chat/4897517-biggest-news-story-part-3?reply=129267843

Lelophants · 18/09/2023 15:42

I don’t get why people are so surprised about this because he was a sec addict. It’s not unusual for someone with a sex addiction to go further than consent and even ‘believe’ there is consent. He probably even believes his own lies, because that’s what he wanted to think.

ArabeIIaScott · 18/09/2023 15:51

WinterDeWinter · 18/09/2023 15:05

I posted this on the 'biggest news story 3' thread but putting it here too - I'm not easily shaken but I was by this, and I think it speaks to comparisons with Saville and also the animal cruelty stuff:

"Just to add - incredibly, I have personally been in a situation where I felt forced to step in between Russell Brand and some younger women, because boundaries were being pushed in the most extraordinarily rapid, completely overt, and thus very hard to challenge manner. They were young women in a work environment and he was a celebrity, so they were trapped. It was exactly the kind of 'look at me being - or perhaps pretending to be - a predator ' hiding-in-plain-sight MO that the documentary tried (and failed I think) to describe.

He knew exactly what I was doing and gave me what I can only describe as a look of pure hatred, as cliched as that sounds. He quickly turned that look into a mocking attempt to 'sexy-hug' me too (I was late-forties then, it was designed to humiliate me as I was so obviously undesirable and shrivelled up). His eyes were just.. dead. It genuinely frightened me and I am a loud-mouth rad fem who tells men in vans to fuck off etc.

I've never forgotten it, it was absolutely extraordinary. It's the only time I've ever felt like I've come into contact with something like a psychopath."

Of all the accounts, the one that chilled me most was the woman talking about his eyes 'going black'.

I've seen that, too.

Many women have.

It is utterly fucking terrifying.

ArabeIIaScott · 18/09/2023 15:53

And that is why I worry for his wife and daughters.

Ramblingnamechanger · 18/09/2023 16:07

Can anyone who followed him explain what they found funny about his “jokes” and comedy? I see women laughing along and fail to see any humour coming out of his mouth…

Ereshkigalangcleg · 18/09/2023 16:24

So this is an additional allegation and it sounds like there are more.

WarriorN · 18/09/2023 16:55

Here we go.

nettie434 · 18/09/2023 17:01

WinterdeWinter and Ereshkigalangcleg's accounts are so sobering because they show the utter self confidence of people like Brand and Savile that they will not be challenged. I am sorry that you did not have other people prepared to stand up with you.

The scale of Savile's crimes made it easy to dismiss him as an exception. I hope this helps show that Brand and Savile are not so rare and that is why we need systems in place to protect young people, particularly those who are technically over the age of consent but where the power balances mean that they are not consenting as equals.

WarriorN · 18/09/2023 17:06

Yes very much so.

On much lower scales with less offending, there are so many men who seem to get away with all sorts of things and are fawned over for not actually very much other than being able to charm people.

(That's one issue with DQST; they're not actually anything particularly special nor bring any really value to literacy but everyone seems to be completely star struck.)

WarriorN · 18/09/2023 17:07

There's also been a lot of heart wringing over his "addictions" and "sex addiction" and poor him, he's over come so much. And is now so spiritual. As if that excuses everything?!

WinterDeWinter · 18/09/2023 17:14

WarriorN · 18/09/2023 17:07

There's also been a lot of heart wringing over his "addictions" and "sex addiction" and poor him, he's over come so much. And is now so spiritual. As if that excuses everything?!

I think it's part of the same trajectory @WarriorN in that he needs both power and attention to survive existentially. Without those things he fears/'knows' he would cease to exist - they keep him alive and contained in a psychological sense.

The flipside to narcissism, in which the individual acknowledges no boundaries between self and other, is that there can be no 'self' without boundaries, and therefore the individual feels constantly on the verge of disintegration.

WinterDeWinter · 18/09/2023 17:15

That is definitely not a 'poor him' btw. I think he's dangerous in every respect.

WarriorN · 18/09/2023 17:17

Absolutely- he uses it to further manipulate imo.

Listening to PM on radio 4 and it's a really good analysis, lots of talk about power imbalance and institutionalised misogyny

MrsTerryPratchett · 18/09/2023 17:18

Lelophants · 18/09/2023 15:42

I don’t get why people are so surprised about this because he was a sec addict. It’s not unusual for someone with a sex addiction to go further than consent and even ‘believe’ there is consent. He probably even believes his own lies, because that’s what he wanted to think.

I've worked in treatment and with addicts for many years. I doubt sex addiction is a real addiction TBF so that's worth saying first.

However, even if it is. I've worked with people in the depths of addictions to cocaine, meth, heroin and other things. Some commit crimes to fund their habits and some don't. Addiction does make criminal behaviour more likely but it isn't a given. There are many many addicts who never do anything illegal to gain access to their drug of choice (barring that drug being illegal).

The high you get from heroin or cocaine is broadly the same qualitatively every time. Depends on purity, what it's cut with and all that but basically the same. Rape and consensual sex are different to each other. Qualitatively. Sex offending is compulsive in nature, it is obsessive. Calling a pattern of sex offending 'sex addition' is a problem. Addiction can be made victimless with safe use programs and decriminalisation. Sex offending can't. They are two different things.

RB can call himself a sex addict but that doesn't mean we shouldn't assess that claim and be very cynical about it.

ArabeIIaScott · 18/09/2023 17:22

God save us from 'spiritual' men. Present in every religion.

Buddhist. Dennis Lingwood (Friends of the Western Buddhist Order, now Triratna, largest Buddhist school in the UK).

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jul/21/sangharakshita-guru-triratna-buddhist-dark-secrets

Christian. So many Catholic priests, including Fr Denis "Chrysostom" Alexander, just to pick a recent UK one:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-58174091

Muslim. Adnan Oktar:

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/uk-world-news/cult-leader-who-forced-sex-28516003

Hinduism:* *Rajinder Kalia.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9485439/Cult-leader-practiced-obscure-branch-Hinduism-accused-rape.html

'New Age' - Bentinho Massaro.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bentinho_Massaro

Jewish: Daniel Ambash.

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2022-06-10/ty-article/jerusalem-ultra-orthodox-cult-leader-convicted-of-torture-and-sexual-abuse-dies-in-prison/00000181-4d08-d4f7-adff-4d7ff4790000

And of course I've just picked a few single examples. There are, depressingly, many more. Vulnerable people often seek solace in religion; predators know this very well. It's a great way to find victims and people who are easy to manipulate.

Buddhist, teacher, predator: dark secrets of the Triratna guru

British-born guru Sangharakshita was mired in allegations of abuse for years. Now it seems the scandal in his wealthy order went far wider than previously acknowledged

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jul/21/sangharakshita-guru-triratna-buddhist-dark-secrets

WarriorN · 18/09/2023 17:24

For some reason it's Rasputin who keeps coming to mind...

Efacsen · 18/09/2023 17:35

Brand's 'Bipolarisation' tour cancelled by the promoters

ArabeIIaScott · 18/09/2023 17:36

I hope his wife and daughters are elsewhere and safe.

WinterDeWinter · 18/09/2023 17:50

WarriorN · 18/09/2023 17:24

For some reason it's Rasputin who keeps coming to mind...

omg yes

Ididivfama · 18/09/2023 18:01

ArabeIIaScott · 18/09/2023 16:30

Katy Perry always looked so uncomfortable with him

WarriorN · 18/09/2023 18:05

omg yes

I know, rite!

WarriorN · 18/09/2023 18:07

So glad I studied a level history; 50% was just all about sources and most of the rest was Russian history which was brilliant to learn about propaganda, power, etc....

mids2019 · 18/09/2023 19:51

It's all going downhill for Brand...

I was thinking he might have quietly gone to the US but now the police are looking into allegations then I don't know now.

I wonder if Brand is going to a private clinic like Huw Edwards?

Possibly he is so narcisstic he doesn't really believe the game is over?

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