White Feminism

[Brefugee]

suggested from another thread, is this something we should talk about. At the risk of being accused of being a TAAT it isn't that.

But on another thread a black MNer said that at a conference she had experienced racist comments from a panel, and she was the only one who pointed it out. And had been the only black person in the room.

The reason i brought up White Feminism on that thread was that the poster was instantly dismissed as a potential derailing troll. Which is... well not sure if the person dismissing the poster is white or not, but it was pretty much the very same treatment. Immediately written off as insignificant.

I've seen comments on the FWR board before that White Feminism rears its ugly head a lot, and that black mumsnetters don't feel comfortable on the board.

I find that shocking. But I'm not black or of any other minority. I'm a white 2nd waver - and i hope that i don't make racist comments or dismiss black women's experiences. I do hope that if i did, they would point that out to me. (and I'd be sorry they have to do that work)

So - should we talk about this? I do think it causes rifts where we should have bridges.

But @MsMarch, that’s asking black people to take on the work and the very real risk of harm in order to discover whether a given white person from SA is safe for them to be around.

Why would they? And why should they?

What you perceive as prejudice is the outcome of lived experience and knowledge of how it usually goes, applied in to reduce the amount of avoidable harm encountered.

Labelling a reticence that directly arises from evidence of lived experience as “prejudice” is in itself unhelpful.

“Prejudice” is a preconceived opinion that is not based on reason or actual experience.

For white feminists to actively reduce the harm done by White Feminism it’s important to notice the details of what we assume and say, even when harm isn’t intended at all.

@Titerama To be clear, I do get it and I think I said that in both my posts - I understand it and am sympathetic. But the question was, is it prejudice, and my answer was yes, albeit understandable prejudice based on the history of South Africa. And of course, if black English people have had personal bad experiences with white South Africans, I can understand even more their reticence.

But I don't think that asking people to keep an open mind is asking them to do the work. No one likes to be pigeon-holed based on perceptions.

Do you 'curate' your social circle rather than just make friends organically? 🤔

@GodessOfThunder this thread showcases white mumsnet at its very worst
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4887666-national-trust-agm?page=1

Let’s not try and keep reminding people of slavery & colonisation eh, that wouldn’t make a nice day out. And what about exploitation of white people, why is that never mentioned.

it is, as others have said, utterly pointless to engage on this topic with someone holding this viewpoint.

I actually think the rest of mumsnet is far more socially conscious than FWR: many posters on FWR see liberalism and socialism as paving the way for gender ideology and trans acceptance so will distance themselves on any matters which they feel align too much to the ‘woke’ agenda. In the gc world liberals are the enemy not the white patriarchy.

I'd rather see modern slavery tackled tbh. Only one country in the top 10 worst offenders is majority white and they're arguably not even Western - Russia. I feel this is why it gets glossed over in favour of things that happened 300 years ago. Doesn't fit the woke narrative.

@ReginaRegina i don’t think anyone sees the two things as mutually exclusive. And how exactly would the national trust be able to reference the existence / atrocities modern slavery?

I'd rather see modern slavery tackled tbh. Only one country in the top 10 worst offenders is majority white and they're arguably not even Western - Russia. I feel this is why it gets glossed over in favour of things that happened 300 years ago. Doesn't fit the woke narrative.

I've read this post a few times and still not quite sure if it's just incredibly obscured satire.

i don’t think anyone sees the two things as mutually exclusive.

Well, with all the talk of reparations to. Africa I've never once seen it asked whether they will offer reparation to their own slaves.

@ReginaRegina Come to think of it, has anyone ever mooted that the Africans never thanked the Europeans for building infrastructure in way of roads and rail tracks?

Your argument is based on a false dilemma: a straw man you’ve invented.

We can tackle both issues. It’s not a zero sum game.

I've just finished reading This Is Not America: Why Black Lives in Britain Matter by Tomiwa Owolade.

Really interesting

I've just had a read through. Apparently that poster spends an inordinate amount of time attempting to antagonise women with all manner silliness, at least a straw man argument implies more than one extremely fatigued brain cell.

That NT thread is packed with White Feminism - it’s grim reading.

Of note is the chasing off of posters who are challenging the prevailing tone.

There’s even someone claiming TAAT about the fact it’s been mentioned on this thread as an example that evidences White Feminism in mn feminism.

It’s bizarre.

MN sex & gender board seems to have its own rules for talking about race and how it impacts women

Don’t talk about race (unless comparing drag to blackface which is totes fine even though black mners have been really clear why that’s not OK)

If you must talk about race, go do it somewhere else otherwise it’s derailing

When you do talk about it somewhere else that’s also not ok

You must provide evidence, with names recognised by current posters, to back up any reference to previous racism, or it didn’t happen

But you must not mention current threads because TAAT

Meanwhile, business as normal continues on Sex & Gender where hilarious bantz about racist greenhouses is totally fine, and obvious racism goes unchallenged, is not in any way likely to make black and brown women feel less included.

Bizarre.

@Titerama great post, that's exactly what happens.
Have been reading that thread, it's indeed totally grim and the whole "I just want to enjoy my scone in peace" from some is urgh.
Total "nothing to see here" vibes

Isn't slagging off posters on another thread against MN rules?

Nobody"s doing that though? You're allowed to question and highlight attitudes and thoughts on here, always have been able to.
You're not allowed to do personal attacks, and no one has.
So why are you rattled?
Rather it wasn't highlighted?? You're proving the posters exact point in her post.

The poster being @Titerama's post highlighting what happens, sorry don't seem to be able to quote on here at mo for some reason

I'm not rattled 

If @Titerama has something she'd like to say on that thread, she should post on it.

Running off to another thread to say 'ooooh look at the horrible women' is just childish.

Either engage with the arguments or stfu.

And as for racist greenhouses

Of note is the chasing off of posters who are challenging the prevailing tone

Yes I think that's happened here too...

Isn't slagging off posters on another thread against MN rules?

Running off to another thread to say 'ooooh look at the horrible women' is just childish.

Show us the posts and threads that prove your point

In the same thread

Stop talking about posts in other threads that prove your point

Damned if you do damned if you don't

I don't understand.

I'm entirely sure what's going on in that thread, but I'm white and it's not any kind of feminism I recognise. More a case of "we don't need education- we're middle clarrrsss!"

What rankles about women like this is that they genuinely do not see themselves, their words or actions in any way harmful yet in my very honest opinion are categorically the most harmful.

I haven't been chased off, more I don't think there's any point in arguing with people who joined the NT in expectation of a Downton Abby theme park.