White Feminism

[Brefugee]

suggested from another thread, is this something we should talk about. At the risk of being accused of being a TAAT it isn't that.

But on another thread a black MNer said that at a conference she had experienced racist comments from a panel, and she was the only one who pointed it out. And had been the only black person in the room.

The reason i brought up White Feminism on that thread was that the poster was instantly dismissed as a potential derailing troll. Which is... well not sure if the person dismissing the poster is white or not, but it was pretty much the very same treatment. Immediately written off as insignificant.

I've seen comments on the FWR board before that White Feminism rears its ugly head a lot, and that black mumsnetters don't feel comfortable on the board.

I find that shocking. But I'm not black or of any other minority. I'm a white 2nd waver - and i hope that i don't make racist comments or dismiss black women's experiences. I do hope that if i did, they would point that out to me. (and I'd be sorry they have to do that work)

So - should we talk about this? I do think it causes rifts where we should have bridges.

For anyone interested David Harewood did a documentary on Blackface on the BBC recently. It was excellent.

I know its not to do with White Feminism but I am recommending on the back of pps comment about the drag/blackface comparison making her feel uncomfortable (understandbly)

Just read about it. I wonder if a feminist woman would be allowed to do a similar show about drag, it's misogynist manifestations and the effect it has on women?

Thank you @Spendonsend
I think a lot of the comparisons stem from people not actually understanding what blackface was. I'm not sure where the desire to continue to do so when it's been pointed out by black women that there are huge differences comes from though.

Is that White Feminism @JaukiVexnoydi or just clueless middle class feminism? I joined as a founding member and left pretty quickly because they wouldn't hear that wanting men to be allowed to stay overnight in maternity wards put women at risk, nor would they arrange any meetings near me which weren't immediately after work. No good when you're a single parent and have to put kids to bed.

Mandu Reid is the current leader of the WEP and is black.

I'd be surprised if noone had to be honest. I imagine that there's a few on YouTube. I might have a look later on today.

My other half once told me that the family Boxing Day Trivial Pursuit team made up of females (aka "the girls") was ALWAYS going to lose to the family team of males (aka "the boys") because we constantly and politely negotiated our way to the wrong answer by being nice and kind and considerate and inclusive.

(Nb: also, to be fair, "the boys" are generally shouty, competitive and every man for themselves.) But still.

So, perhaps feminism is a bit like the girls team; we are so busy being thoughtful and inclusive that we don't focus on the actual goal and, as a result, always get fucked over by the shouty boys team?

IAPNAF (Probably)

I'd be surprised if noone had to be honest. I imagine that there's a few on YouTube. I might have a look later on today.

I meant big-budget, professional, BBC ... but yes maybe there has been a documentary made (I've never seen it).

I agree @redrighthand83.

White Feminism is racism. It is real and happens here. I was shocked at the number of FWR regulars who opposed the BlackMumsnetters board when it was proposed.

Feminist women can be just as racist as women who aren't feminist.

Is there a blackmumsnetter board?

Holding anyone to differnt standards of behaviour purely on account of their skin colour is racist - and that goes for judging people purely on the basis of being white too.

s there a blackmumsnetter board?

Yes. Also one for Irish, Australian, Scottish MN and so on.

I don't recall any FWR opposition to any of them.

I'm still confused about what this monolithic block called 'white feminism' is.

Cultural differences are often more pronounced than those purely of race.

White Feminism is the term used to describe racism in Feminism. It does not mean that all white feminists are racist by dint of being white.

@YetAnotherSpartacus there were no threads on FWR opposing BlackMumsnetters, but some of the most vocal opponents on the threads in Site Stuff and AIBU were FWR regulars.

but some of the most vocal opponents on the threads in Site Stuff and AIBU were FWR regulars.

Are there links to these threads?

White Feminism is the term used to describe racism in Feminism. It does not mean that all white feminists are racist by dint of being white

It is a rather clumsy term really.

No, actually, I don't think we can. I am not sure I can articulate this but there's no doubt in my mind that blackface is a LOT more offensive than drag. It's complex and has to do with long-term power dynamics, the purpose behind it etc.

In the same way that I found people who were anti covid vaccinations comparing that to being jewish in nazi Germany offensive. You can feel marginalised and offended by something without it having be as bad as something else.

Thanks just found it - if I was aware of its existence I would probably have opened this thread on there…I’m glad it’s there and thank you for pointing me in its direction.

I just don't buy that what is called "white feminism" is nothing to do with the race of the feminists in question. It is racist to lump white feminists together in this way.

Stop pussy footing around saying "we call it white feminism but ofc it's nothing to do with being white and we're not saying all white women are racists" etc.

If it wasn't about being white, you'd call it "Racist Feminism" or similar. But it's called White Feminism. It's absolutely a term for silencing white women, or telling them what they ought to do or who they ought to campaign for. The accusation says it's not ok for them to advocate for themselves, and not ok for them to advocate for all women equally either: they are accused of being racist when they don't especially advocate for women of minority races (as per the video link posted above). Well I simply disagree that that is helpful or fair.

The longer this thread goes on for, the more I'm convinced and the stronger I feel about this.

I'm not even white myself, but I'll call it out as I see it. Stop expecting white women to advocate for your/my race in particular, especially the ones who are showing up to fight for women at all.

Sorry, just realised my response might be confusing - I meant to reply to the "can we not find drag and blackface equally offensive" question. And my answer is no.

I suspect that Trivial Pursuit was designed and written by men for men. So the questions are more likely to be linked to things that are of interest to men. eg, I haven't played for years, but isn't one of the categories sports? And, I imagine, it's dominated by men's sports. And overall, men are fare more likely to be very focused on sports.

If we did a general trivia quiz on sports, obscure bands etc, DH would win. But if the trivia quiz was on food, medicine, finances, I would win.

I don't recall any FWR opposition to any of them.

How curious that someone would say there was. And I think a good demonstration of why it’s impossible to have a proper conversation about these issues.

I think it’s worth talking about why this issue is so useful for bad actors to exploit. IMO it’s because the discourse rules set up by Social Justice norms make it impossible to answer an accusation of racism or (on some forums) transphobia; other -isms get more of a pass. So anyone at all, even white men, can lob an accusation of racism into a conversation where women are saying things they don’t like, and derail it effectively, and hopefully paint the people who disagree with them as racist.

I don’t know what the solution to this is; I do understand why the SJ discourse norms evolved. But I think they are unsustainable and create a loophole for narcissists and psychopaths to bully people, which more and more narcissists and psychopaths are recognising and exploiting. And I don’t think that helps at all in actually addressing racism of any kind.

I'm still trying to get my head around what people mean by white feminism and the criticisms thereof to be honest.

I just did a search to try and find these threads. This is one of them.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/site_stuff/4019891-dear-black-people-of-mumsnet

On the few pages I scrolled through I only recognised one name as a FWR regular and she was in favour of the Black Mumsnetters board.

@TooBigForMyBoots If you have evidence to back up your assertion maybe you could post some links.

You are on the internet right now.

It even has a wiki page. Google is your friend!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_feminism#:~:text=White%20feminism%20is%20a%20term,and%20women%20lacking%20other%20privileges.