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Feminism: chat

Feminism: sex and gender

Original poster

White Feminism

598 replies

Brefugee · 22/08/2023 10:25

suggested from another thread, is this something we should talk about. At the risk of being accused of being a TAAT it isn't that.

But on another thread a black MNer said that at a conference she had experienced racist comments from a panel, and she was the only one who pointed it out. And had been the only black person in the room.

The reason i brought up White Feminism on that thread was that the poster was instantly dismissed as a potential derailing troll. Which is... well not sure if the person dismissing the poster is white or not, but it was pretty much the very same treatment. Immediately written off as insignificant.

I've seen comments on the FWR board before that White Feminism rears its ugly head a lot, and that black mumsnetters don't feel comfortable on the board.

I find that shocking. But I'm not black or of any other minority. I'm a white 2nd waver - and i hope that i don't make racist comments or dismiss black women's experiences. I do hope that if i did, they would point that out to me. (and I'd be sorry they have to do that work)

So - should we talk about this? I do think it causes rifts where we should have bridges.

OP posts:
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redrighthand83 · 22/08/2023 16:05

Clymene · 22/08/2023 16:04

I apologise @redrighthand83, I meant to tag @TooBigForMyBoots

It was an honest mistake so no need for snippiness.

Apologies - its this Board rubbing off on me!

RebelliousCow · 22/08/2023 16:08

What I like about this board is that we don't really know the background of the people we are conversing with, unless they specifically state or share that background with us. We come together, largely, to discuss what unites us - not what divides us.Even when there are differences, they can be put aside for the sake of the common goal.

ColinTheGenderMinotaur · 22/08/2023 16:10

RebelliousCow · 22/08/2023 16:08

What I like about this board is that we don't really know the background of the people we are conversing with, unless they specifically state or share that background with us. We come together, largely, to discuss what unites us - not what divides us.Even when there are differences, they can be put aside for the sake of the common goal.

I like that too.

The lack of avatars and ease-of-name-change mean that we can talk about ideas and concepts without prejudging each other based on immutable characteristics.

RebelliousCow · 22/08/2023 16:14

MsMarch · 22/08/2023 16:04

Well, by your argument, I do get to decide that for me, blackface is more offensive even though I'm not black.

But I'm struggling to see how any rational person can't see the difference between certain levels of offence in absolute terms. I am offended when someone makes a sexist joke. It is nonetheless, nowhere near as offensive as someone making a joke about being jewish in nazi Germany.

In the same way, I get annoyed when a woman comes on MN to complain about, for example, her DH never putting his clothes in the laundry basket. And then a bunch of people come on tell her that her issues are really non-issues. Of course they are, in the bigger scheme of things and I'm sure that she knows that laundry arguments are nowhere as severe as if he was physically abusing her. So both are valid, but one is genuinely more of an issue than the other.

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I guess the reson that I'm not familiar with your posting name is because you don't really post much on this board? But you'll find that women who frequently post here do find great offence and insult in drag and in gender identity theory. I mean really deep insult and offence - which is why we are so motivated.

Of course you personally may not feel so strongly about those forms of deep prejudice, but appreciate that others do.

Clymene · 22/08/2023 16:14

No worries @redrighthand83 Smile

Magicoven · 22/08/2023 16:15

JanetP1990 · 22/08/2023 15:34

My post on the original thread, where I mentioned a racist comment going unaddressed at a feminist conference was not to suggest that the whole conference should have been turned into a discussion about race. That was not the purpose of the conference. I was also not saying that the women at this conference were racist at all. But what I am saying is that if somebody there feels that that is an acceptable thing to say and they aren’t pulled up, that says that this is a space where those views are accepted. Not necessarily shared by those in the room, but not bad enough to be shut down. This makes it feel like a not safe space for people that suffer at the hands of racism. In these circumstances, there cannot be unity of all women. Only those who feel like the space is somewhere that values them will want to attend.

This makes sense to me.

To me IME, the issue with white feminism is that in the UK especially, its largely dominated by white, middle class women so the focus tends to be via their lens. They seem to dictate the narrative

It doesn't surprise me at all that it's overwhelmingly white and middle class, the country is predominantly white and don't see an issue with that, I guess the problem is how to amplify the voices of the minority so they're considered.

RebelliousCow · 22/08/2023 16:17

redrighthand83 · 22/08/2023 15:31

To me IME, the issue with white feminism is that in the UK especially, its largely dominated by white, middle class women so the focus tends to be via their lens. They seem to dictate the narrative
.

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Depnds on what you mean by feminism, doesn't it? Personally I don't use that label. I'm a woman who is interested in women's issues - regardless of their background.

What do you mean by middle class? A lot of people come on here and make all sorts of assumptions about people's class backgrounds - based on what? Being articulate or knowing their stuff? Based on what?

RebelliousCow · 22/08/2023 16:20

JanetP1990 · 22/08/2023 15:34

My post on the original thread, where I mentioned a racist comment going unaddressed at a feminist conference was not to suggest that the whole conference should have been turned into a discussion about race. That was not the purpose of the conference. I was also not saying that the women at this conference were racist at all. But what I am saying is that if somebody there feels that that is an acceptable thing to say and they aren’t pulled up, that says that this is a space where those views are accepted. Not necessarily shared by those in the room, but not bad enough to be shut down. This makes it feel like a not safe space for people that suffer at the hands of racism. In these circumstances, there cannot be unity of all women. Only those who feel like the space is somewhere that values them will want to attend.

"Safe spaces" is not really what this board is about. Being safe from ideas, from other people's views? Being scared to disagre or thrash issues out?

redrighthand83 · 22/08/2023 16:22

Magicoven · 22/08/2023 16:15

This makes sense to me.

To me IME, the issue with white feminism is that in the UK especially, its largely dominated by white, middle class women so the focus tends to be via their lens. They seem to dictate the narrative

It doesn't surprise me at all that it's overwhelmingly white and middle class, the country is predominantly white and don't see an issue with that, I guess the problem is how to amplify the voices of the minority so they're considered.

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How would you suggest we amplify?

redrighthand83 · 22/08/2023 16:26

RebelliousCow · 22/08/2023 16:17

Depnds on what you mean by feminism, doesn't it? Personally I don't use that label. I'm a woman who is interested in women's issues - regardless of their background.

What do you mean by middle class? A lot of people come on here and make all sorts of assumptions about people's class backgrounds - based on what? Being articulate or knowing their stuff? Based on what?

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I am not talking about people on here? I have no idea the backgrounds of posters on any Board.

I think the majority of women would say we are interested in all womens issues but this is about delving deeper and looking into how white feminism is problematic, and acknowledging that we still benefit from a system that damages women who are not white.

RebelliousCow · 22/08/2023 16:27

redrighthand83 · 22/08/2023 16:22

How would you suggest we amplify?

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Feminism centres women. It doesn't matter what their background. All we have in common is our sex and the conditions associated with our sex, and the circumstances which follow on from our sex.

Personally hate all of this ally/"amplify" stuff - reminds me of Owen jones - and that makes me cross.

JanetP1990 · 22/08/2023 16:27

RebelliousCow · 22/08/2023 16:20

"Safe spaces" is not really what this board is about. Being safe from ideas, from other people's views? Being scared to disagre or thrash issues out?

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Fine. Whatever you want to call a space that you don’t want to be in. Maybe having a movement that includes all types of women isn’t important to some and if that’s the case then who cares if someone says something racist? I’m just saying that if that is important then those types of comments should be challenged.

redrighthand83 · 22/08/2023 16:28

RebelliousCow · 22/08/2023 16:27

Feminism centres women. It doesn't matter what their background. All we have in common is our sex and the conditions associated with our sex, and the circumstances which follow on from our sex.

Personally hate all of this ally/"amplify" stuff - reminds me of Owen jones - and that makes me cross.

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But we are not all treated the same, are we? Even as women.

Magicoven · 22/08/2023 16:31

RebelliousCow · 22/08/2023 16:27

Feminism centres women. It doesn't matter what their background. All we have in common is our sex and the conditions associated with our sex, and the circumstances which follow on from our sex.

Personally hate all of this ally/"amplify" stuff - reminds me of Owen jones - and that makes me cross.

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Why do you hate it? I get hating it in the instance of people barging in where they don't belong and expecting everyone to put their needs first (not naming any movements but I'm sure we all know) and ensuring all women are considered in feminism even if they feel barriers to participating? Yes I agree all we have in common is our sex, but you'd hope that female issues that don't affect all would still be considered important to all. FGM, higher rates of maternal deaths due to systematic failures etc? It's intersections as it crosses into of course race issues too; but why shouldn't the uniquely female issues come under feminism?

Magicoven · 22/08/2023 16:31

But ensuring*

RebelliousCow · 22/08/2023 16:32

redrighthand83 · 22/08/2023 16:26

I am not talking about people on here? I have no idea the backgrounds of posters on any Board.

I think the majority of women would say we are interested in all womens issues but this is about delving deeper and looking into how white feminism is problematic, and acknowledging that we still benefit from a system that damages women who are not white.

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I think this is the wrong board for you, then...because this board is specifically about issues relating to sex and gender - not to race or class or religion or any other such grouping. and because of that focus there tends to be little truck with anything that distracts from that central issue/goal.

Sex and gender issues affect all women - and our differences pale in comparison.Although of course, women from certain ethnic or religious backgrounds will likely be even further/additionally impacted if there are no longer guaranteed single sex spaces. We are deeply aware of that.

Women as a group are only as liberated as the least liberated amongst us.

redrighthand83 · 22/08/2023 16:34

RebelliousCow · 22/08/2023 16:32

I think this is the wrong board for you, then...because this board is specifically about issues relating to sex and gender - not to race or class or religion or any other such grouping. and because of that focus there tends to be little truck with anything that distracts from that central issue/goal.

Sex and gender issues affect all women - and our differences pale in comparison.Although of course, women from certain ethnic or religious backgrounds will likely be even further/additionally impacted if there are no longer guaranteed single sex spaces. We are deeply aware of that.

Women as a group are only as liberated as the least liberated amongst us.

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I didnt start the thread.

If you do not want to contribute to this discussion, feel free to move on.

AlisonDonut · 22/08/2023 16:35

JanetP1990 · 22/08/2023 16:27

Fine. Whatever you want to call a space that you don’t want to be in. Maybe having a movement that includes all types of women isn’t important to some and if that’s the case then who cares if someone says something racist? I’m just saying that if that is important then those types of comments should be challenged.

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They should, but how could people on this board now, be responsible for what WPUK session leads did or didn't do in a separate conference?

This is specifically the board that has been hived off to focus on Sex and Gender discussions, hence concentrating on discussions of sex and gender.

redrighthand83 · 22/08/2023 16:35

It's interesting that there is already quite a lot of whitesplaining, derailing and defensiveness here.

Its the first hurdle to get over, to be honest.

RebelliousCow · 22/08/2023 16:37

JanetP1990 · 22/08/2023 16:27

Fine. Whatever you want to call a space that you don’t want to be in. Maybe having a movement that includes all types of women isn’t important to some and if that’s the case then who cares if someone says something racist? I’m just saying that if that is important then those types of comments should be challenged.

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This board has all sorts of women ( and some men) on it, from many diverse and different backgrounds. But we don't spend all of our time talking about our differnces ( sometimes we do when it comes to issues such as left/right/party politics because the parties have quite different approaches to issues around gender). We are here for a specific purpose.

If you want a board that is set up specificaly to discuss issues around race you are free to set one up.

Mummy08m · 22/08/2023 16:39

Who here is "whitesplaining" and what does this even mean except a term to rubbish what white women say regardless of what they are saying?

How can you possibly know what the race is of any individual mumsnet commenter?

Is a good or bad argument automatically more valid or invalid based on the race of the person making it?

I can't believe what I'm reading. I thought mumsnet was better than this. In fact I'm sure it is generally.

beastlyslumber · 22/08/2023 16:40

Mummy08m · 22/08/2023 14:57

I just don't buy that what is called "white feminism" is nothing to do with the race of the feminists in question. It is racist to lump white feminists together in this way.

Stop pussy footing around saying "we call it white feminism but ofc it's nothing to do with being white and we're not saying all white women are racists" etc.

If it wasn't about being white, you'd call it "Racist Feminism" or similar. But it's called White Feminism. It's absolutely a term for silencing white women, or telling them what they ought to do or who they ought to campaign for. The accusation says it's not ok for them to advocate for themselves, and not ok for them to advocate for all women equally either: they are accused of being racist when they don't especially advocate for women of minority races (as per the video link posted above). Well I simply disagree that that is helpful or fair.

The longer this thread goes on for, the more I'm convinced and the stronger I feel about this.

I'm not even white myself, but I'll call it out as I see it. Stop expecting white women to advocate for your/my race in particular, especially the ones who are showing up to fight for women at all.

This is a brilliant comment and I agree. Stop trying to silence women, whatever the colour of our skin.

RebelliousCow · 22/08/2023 16:40

redrighthand83 · 22/08/2023 16:35

It's interesting that there is already quite a lot of whitesplaining, derailing and defensiveness here.

Its the first hurdle to get over, to be honest.

This is not the right board for you. Take it somewhere else. This is a board about issues relating very specifically to sex and gender. It has already been hived off from the main feminism board. Maybe you could try 'feminism general chat'?Most people here have no time for this type of intersectionalist analysis. It is a massive distraction.

Magicoven · 22/08/2023 16:42

RebelliousCow · 22/08/2023 16:40

This is not the right board for you. Take it somewhere else. This is a board about issues relating very specifically to sex and gender. It has already been hived off from the main feminism board. Maybe you could try 'feminism general chat'?Most people here have no time for this type of intersectionalist analysis. It is a massive distraction.

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Is this board solely about trans issues then? Probably worth getting the thread moved, had the potential to be interesting but people are more concerned about gate keeping the board evidently.

Magicoven · 22/08/2023 16:42

Also I think citing it as a 'distraction' explains the issue quite well.

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