White Feminism

[Brefugee]

suggested from another thread, is this something we should talk about. At the risk of being accused of being a TAAT it isn't that.

But on another thread a black MNer said that at a conference she had experienced racist comments from a panel, and she was the only one who pointed it out. And had been the only black person in the room.

The reason i brought up White Feminism on that thread was that the poster was instantly dismissed as a potential derailing troll. Which is... well not sure if the person dismissing the poster is white or not, but it was pretty much the very same treatment. Immediately written off as insignificant.

I've seen comments on the FWR board before that White Feminism rears its ugly head a lot, and that black mumsnetters don't feel comfortable on the board.

I find that shocking. But I'm not black or of any other minority. I'm a white 2nd waver - and i hope that i don't make racist comments or dismiss black women's experiences. I do hope that if i did, they would point that out to me. (and I'd be sorry they have to do that work)

So - should we talk about this? I do think it causes rifts where we should have bridges.

This is the way I feel about it after some excellent and compelling posts on the subject by black posters on this board some time ago. The level of violence and aggression which accompanied blackface just isn't comparable to drag for example. I find drag offensive because of its inherent misogyny (all the fishy nonsense for example) but don't think it can reasonably be compared to blackface.

I tend to lurk and learn on these type of threads purely because I'm a white woman who lives in a very white country (Scotland) and I feel like an uninformed dickhead putting my two pence worth in. I didn't see the posts referred to in this OP (I think I was on the thread referred to earlier but have only been on here sporadically over the last couple of days) but I really don't like the idea that a person's experience of racism is being ignored or devalued.

I'm still not sure exactly what this entails. Perhaps I'm a shit feminist but most of the issues I'm concerned with apply to all women, and those which affect me as a black woman I'm not sure I expect white women to actively address (although you'd hope they'd be allies). For initiatives such as five more which are centred around black women I've found white colleagues, friends and others supportive of.

Does anyone have examples? I'm keen to learn and I'm not denying it's an issue, just still struggling a bit.

Does anyone have examples? I'm keen to learn and I'm not denying it's an issue, just still struggling a bit

I’d be really keen to address issues like the maltreatment of black women in healthcare, esp maternity care, and racism against black girls in schools but instead of tangible issues like this I’m usually confronted with vague accusations about feminism somehow being white and I’m supposed to feel guilty. I’d rather do something tangible with black women to work on actual issues.

@Magicoven I'm also not entirely sure about what exactly white feminism is, but it's not hard to get a basic sense from, for example, the wiki posted above or even just in the name.

And finding examples of it is probably not hard.

The example I referenced earlier about black women in majority white City firms is possibly one. We can all agree that getting more women into leadership positions is important. But, it's true that I've seen lots of people (mostly white people) feel that if a white woman makes it in, then the black women must just "wait" because "Rome wasn't built in a day". I'm thinking that "white feminism" would include this sense that these things take time, and that it's okay for the white women's issues to be taken seriously first.

Similarly, if I as a white woman am assertive, there is a group of people within the organisations I worked at who would consider me "aggressive" and view me negatively as a result. But this is not true across the board - many colleagues, peers etc would defend me because I am a woman but I still have white privilege. But when I speak to black women about the same issue, it quickly becomes clear that the proportion of people who would see their actions as aggressive is much higher, reducing the number of people they have fighting their corner or acting as allies.

Yes, these are good examples but I'm guessing that just like ea lot of the inbuilt sexism and misogyny white women fight against is not researched or examined in the same way, there are many many ways where the challenges of being a black women are not properly examined.

To keep with my city firm examples - I regularly see statistics in which they talk about the number or percentage of women represented at senior management level. I sometimes see statistics about people of colour represented at senior management level. I seldom see anything that specifies women of colour represented at that level, nor have I ever seen any widespread coverage of initiatives to specifically support women of colour in these endeavours. that is a huge problem. And yes, often it's pointed out that in the UK, the demographics are different, but I don't think that's a good enough reason. Nor do I think it's the real reason. Plus, while I don't follow diversity issues in the US as closely as I do here, my sense is that the statistics and initiatives I'm talking about run along similar lines as here. Certainly, that's what I see with my international clients.

To me IME, the issue with white feminism is that in the UK especially, its largely dominated by white, middle class women so the focus tends to be via their lens. They seem to dictate the narrative
.

We can all agree that getting more women into leadership positions is important. But, it's true that I've seen lots of people (mostly white people) feel that if a white woman makes it in, then the black women must just "wait" because "Rome wasn't built in a day". I'm thinking that "white feminism" would include this sense that these things take time, and that it's okay for the white women's issues to be taken seriously first

I’ve experienced similar with black men getting into positions and women of all colours being told to wait their turn.

To me IME, the issue with white feminism is that in the UK especially, its largely dominated by white, middle class women so the focus tends to be via their lens. They seem to dictate the narrative

what would a black or non-racist feminism look like though? What would be its foci and issues?

My post on the original thread, where I mentioned a racist comment going unaddressed at a feminist conference was not to suggest that the whole conference should have been turned into a discussion about race. That was not the purpose of the conference. I was also not saying that the women at this conference were racist at all. But what I am saying is that if somebody there feels that that is an acceptable thing to say and they aren’t pulled up, that says that this is a space where those views are accepted. Not necessarily shared by those in the room, but not bad enough to be shut down. This makes it feel like a not safe space for people that suffer at the hands of racism. In these circumstances, there cannot be unity of all women. Only those who feel like the space is somewhere that values them will want to attend.

We can all agree that getting more women into leadership positions is important. But, it's true that I've seen lots of people (mostly white people) feel that if a white woman makes it in, then the black women must just "wait" because "Rome wasn't built in a day"

I’d call that ‘Glass Ceiling Feminism’ or ‘Boardroom Feminism’.

I totally agree with you Janet. That was an appallingly racist comment and I’m stunned that it wasn’t questioned.

why not "white feminism"? It intrinsically centres white women?

Because it doesn’t do shit for working class women of any race.

I am white, so I can't answer that.

I can only focus on where I can see white feminism is damaging, and where I might have harmful behavior. I know I have absolutely been guilty of defensiveness and derailing, and centering myself in conversations.

Plus it does not sum up feminism and also as said similar happens to women when black men (probably middle class) get seats at the corporate table.

I get the sense that "white feminism" is generally considered to be "white middle class" feminism.

A working class, black woman is going to have 3 issues to deal with - being a woman, being black and being working class. Seeing a middle class black woman in a position of power would be better for her than a white middle class woman, but there's still work to be done for her.

I don't appreciate being told who or what I can communicate/disagree with and about.

That's not a very good analogy, either.

I’m not convinced that ‘representation’ does anything much.

The current Tory government is extremely racially diverse. Is there any evidence that this actually makes any material difference to working class British residents from racial, ethnic or religious minorities?

Unless you can provide any evidence of a lot of 'FWR regulars' being really opposed to the Black Mumsnetters board @redrighthand83, I'm going to assume you're shit stirring.

The only name I recognise on the thread PatricksRum started in Chat is mine and I said I thought it was a great idea. I still do.

I never said they did? You have tagged the wrong person. I have no knowledge on the history of that issue.

Have a lovely day.

It is not really up to you to decide, though. My suffering is bigger than your suffering is what I dislike very intensely about intersectionalism as it is now bandied about. The victimhood Olympics, and the feeling that one group has the right to suppress the speech of another group.

But you see this type of strop throwing and attempt to dictate what others can and cannot legitimnately say/criticise and so on, is something we're very familair with on this board - and it is usually perpertrated by TRAS and their supposed allies.

Appropriation for the purpose of ridicule is the same in both circumstances. Of course there are differences, though - but there are also similarities.

Well, by your argument, I do get to decide that for me, blackface is more offensive even though I'm not black.

But I'm struggling to see how any rational person can't see the difference between certain levels of offence in absolute terms. I am offended when someone makes a sexist joke. It is nonetheless, nowhere near as offensive as someone making a joke about being jewish in nazi Germany.

In the same way, I get annoyed when a woman comes on MN to complain about, for example, her DH never putting his clothes in the laundry basket. And then a bunch of people come on tell her that her issues are really non-issues. Of course they are, in the bigger scheme of things and I'm sure that she knows that laundry arguments are nowhere as severe as if he was physically abusing her. So both are valid, but one is genuinely more of an issue than the other.

I apologise @redrighthand83, I meant to tag @TooBigForMyBoots

It was an honest mistake so no need for snippiness.