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Feminism: chat

Feminism: sex and gender

Original poster

Men: you’re the cause of our baby crisis

203 replies

reegee · 17/05/2023 14:25

Interesting article in the Times today. It's surely a valid point that Young women should consider the contribution to parenting that a partner might offer when considering having a baby?

Men: you’re the cause of our baby crisis

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/men-youre-the-cause-of-our-baby-crisis-qgqq288db?shareToken=5ca2dd91b4d7a7d64672da6f3bacdf7f

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6
4plusthehound · 20/05/2023 20:52

ReleasetheCrackHen · 18/05/2023 23:36

@JaneyGee

You say “birth rate” but you must mean “net population growth”

Birth rates are falling globally and have been for 2,000yrs from a record height of 8.0 in Ancient times to 6.0 during the Renaissance to 4.0 post 1750 modern times to 3.5 in 1950 to the current 1.8 as of 2023, which is below the replacement rate of 2.1.

Birth rates have been falling everywhere, albeit at different rates. Global population growth is not due births, but due to fewer preventable deaths.

The reason population exploded for centuries was due to everyone living longer, especially infants and children NOT due to “record high birth rates”.

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That is really interesting - now I need to go do some reading!

Thank you.

4plusthehound · 20/05/2023 21:09

TheMoops · 20/05/2023 08:41

I can often tell when a space has been designed by a man or by a woman.

I can often tell when a female character has been written by a man or by a woman.

I can often read an article in the paper and know that it is a male writing it.

And would you say that's due to biology or the lived experience of being a man or woman?

I think both.

My female body has a strong biological cycle every 28 days, that defines me (biologicaly).

Because of that biological definition - society also (tries) to define me.

I do not think we can seperate ourselves from our biology.

I do think we can seperate ourselves from societal expectations due to biology.

Blomonje · 20/05/2023 21:26

Lack of well paid paternity leave is a huge part of the problem. When I gave birth my DH didn’t take any time off work, because he couldn’t afford to. Because if your DH earns £60k it costs your family £1k per week for every week he takes off work.

So he ends up working while she stays at home, because maternity pay is 90% of salary so she can afford some time off. And once this situation has been established it’s very hard to reverse. Once mum is established as the primary parent while dad works, this becomes the status quo.

kokeshidolls · 20/05/2023 21:28

4plusthehound · 20/05/2023 20:47

There are eostrogen receptors in almost every cell in a womans body.The female body starts to fill up on it around puberty until it gets rid of it in menopause. Not so men.

There HAS to be differences between the brians of the sexes.

Not to say that women need to go back home and are the only ones with capacity for child raising.

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But neuroscientists have found no significant differences between brains in the two sexes, as explained in each of the books mentioned upthread (Delusions of Gender etc). So why must there be?

4plusthehound · 20/05/2023 21:57

kokeshidolls · 20/05/2023 21:28

But neuroscientists have found no significant differences between brains in the two sexes, as explained in each of the books mentioned upthread (Delusions of Gender etc). So why must there be?

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I know that biological determanisim is really scary stuff. Eugenics, holocausts and consistent oppression of women through the ages.

But - taking the very obvious difference in the physical mainfestion of men and women - across the entire planet - woul surely imply that the brains creating these bodies are different between the sexes?

It cannot be an accident.

So with that in mind I would say that some neuroscietists have found no significant differences yet.

ReleasetheCrackHen · 21/05/2023 06:25

There are eostrogen receptors in almost every cell in a womans body.The female body starts to fill up on it around puberty until it gets rid of it in menopause. Not so men.

This is a common misconception as there are just as many oestrogen receptors in men as there are in women. The same with testosterone receptors.

ReleasetheCrackHen · 21/05/2023 06:27

kokeshidolls · 20/05/2023 21:28

But neuroscientists have found no significant differences between brains in the two sexes, as explained in each of the books mentioned upthread (Delusions of Gender etc). So why must there be?

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Exactly, and the idea that our thoughts and feelings are ruled by our sex hormones is ridiculous. Men and women have the exact same sex hormones, they are just in different amounts and govern reproduction only. They do not control our thoughts, intelligence, decisions or autonomy.

ReleasetheCrackHen · 21/05/2023 06:28

4plusthehound · 20/05/2023 20:52

That is really interesting - now I need to go do some reading!

Thank you.

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Thanks 😀

ReleasetheCrackHen · 21/05/2023 06:30

Once mum is established as the primary parent while dad works, this becomes the status quo.

Yes, and as you say lack of paid paternity leave is one of the structural barriers in society I was alluding to that trap women as primary parent.

YukoandHiro · 21/05/2023 06:49

stealthbanana · 17/05/2023 14:59

@hamstersarse you must live in very cloistered circles if you don’t know a single woman who has maintained a career with children under 10. Most of my friends do. Many of us have had problems with husbands who seem think that you can have a career but you also have to be the default parent as the woman - it’s not just about housework, it’s about sharing parenting equally. The most privileged people on the planet are men with stay at home wives. See Jessica grose’s recent reporting in the nyt about the amount of time women and men spend on household labour relevant to their working status - the summary is that the ONLY situation in which men do more domestic labour than women is where woman is sole breadwinner, man is non working. In that situation, the couple does the SAME amount of work (!!!).

Yes this... above all else most people simple cannot AFFORD not to keep going. And yet still become default parent, mental load carrier, cook, cleaner etc.
It is the leading cause of divorce from what I've seen.

YukoandHiro · 21/05/2023 06:52

JenniferBooth · 17/05/2023 19:24

Im 50 next month. Ive been child free by choice since i was 21. i saw what a life of drudgery it was for my fellow working class women and thought no way.

But now we have the very same political party who kept telling women like me not to have kids that we couldnt afford now moaning at us for the falling birth rate. Gaslighting fuckers.

Well said

Blomonje · 21/05/2023 07:39

YukoandHiro · 21/05/2023 06:49

Yes this... above all else most people simple cannot AFFORD not to keep going. And yet still become default parent, mental load carrier, cook, cleaner etc.
It is the leading cause of divorce from what I've seen.

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Indeed. I used to love my DH. Thought he was a kind, respectable man. I still respect him but I don’t love him any more, largely because of his selfishness after we had a baby. He’s just dumped all of the parenting on me so he can work freely, destroying all of my opportunities in the process.

Notamum12345577 · 21/05/2023 07:47

stealthbanana · 17/05/2023 18:06

And I’m saying that you live a sheltered existence if all the women you know downsized their career in the early years. Most of my friends work full time and have proper jobs. Can you not see how sexist what you’re saying is? Would you be comfortable saying to all the men that they have prioritised their careers over their children? Many men I know would bristle at the suggestion they are not good parents to their kids just because they work full time….

I’m 40, so know a lot of people with kids, and I also can’t think of a single mum who works full time. I know lots do in general, but it must be a minority

user1492757084 · 21/05/2023 08:01

Spendonsend · 18/05/2023 08:07

There are some great statistics on what women do around working when the give birth. My LA published them for my area but they are pre covid so yhings might be different now.
Things women do in greater numbers than men.

Stop working
Work part time
Stop seeking promotion
Ask for flexible hours
Stop travelling
Seek out less stressful full time work
Seek out work closer to home or nursery.

There is only one thing men do in greater numbers than women on the birth of their first child.

Seek out higher paid work

Which does indicate that many women are making career decisions based on their children. I also think the men seeking higher paid work might have to if their partner stopped working or went part time, or took a lower paid less stressful job. But they might prefer that to stalling their career?

It woukd be nice to even it up.

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For some of the women - to even it up would be nice and for some men - to even it up would be nice.
Many Dad's would love to see their small children more.

For most babies, who have dictated their parent's decisions, they have what is nicest for themselves. Many babies love their breast feeding mothers to be nearby. Many babies choose their mothers for comfort.
It is obvious that the babies have influenced things for their benefit, unevenly, and they also deserve a say.

As humans we should not ignore the baby's preference.

TheMoops · 21/05/2023 08:05

I’m 40, so know a lot of people with kids, and I also can’t think of a single mum who works full time. I know lots do in general, but it must be a minority

It's not a minority. The number of women working full time has been steadily increasing since 2012 and now almost twice as many women work f/t compared to p/t.

TheMoops · 21/05/2023 08:15

And if you want actual figures.....
15.6 million women over the age of 16 were in work in 2022 and 9.74 of these women we're working full time.

1.47 million women were economically inactive because they were caring for children.

Women not working or working part time are the minority not the other way around

Neurodiversitydoctor · 21/05/2023 08:24

user1492757084 · 21/05/2023 08:01

For some of the women - to even it up would be nice and for some men - to even it up would be nice.
Many Dad's would love to see their small children more.

For most babies, who have dictated their parent's decisions, they have what is nicest for themselves. Many babies love their breast feeding mothers to be nearby. Many babies choose their mothers for comfort.
It is obvious that the babies have influenced things for their benefit, unevenly, and they also deserve a say.

As humans we should not ignore the baby's preference.

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Most babies are not breastfed at 6 months, most mother's return to work after this. It is a straw man, Norwich countries have both better breastfeeding rates and increased female participation in the work force.

Spendonsend · 21/05/2023 08:26

TheMoops · 21/05/2023 08:15

And if you want actual figures.....
15.6 million women over the age of 16 were in work in 2022 and 9.74 of these women we're working full time.

1.47 million women were economically inactive because they were caring for children.

Women not working or working part time are the minority not the other way around

The figures are different for women with young children. Women with 2 to 8 year olds are more likely to be in part time employment than full time (employment rates are high)

TheMoops · 21/05/2023 08:48

The figures are different for women with young children. Women with 2 to 8 year olds are more likely to be in part time employment than full time (employment rates are high)

But it's not a huge difference and certainly isn't the case that all or the majority of women with young children are working part time.

The gap is biggest when children are aged 1-4 but once the start school it narrows even further.

Spendonsend · 21/05/2023 09:07

TheMoops · 21/05/2023 08:48

The figures are different for women with young children. Women with 2 to 8 year olds are more likely to be in part time employment than full time (employment rates are high)

But it's not a huge difference and certainly isn't the case that all or the majority of women with young children are working part time.

The gap is biggest when children are aged 1-4 but once the start school it narrows even further.

No not all. At 8 years old 35% are in ft employment. 39% are PT and 11% are looking after the family FT. I assume the rest are disabled or actively seeking work.
I think it must vary where you are in the country too.
Im just surpised some people only know FT or non working mothers.

PJRules · 21/05/2023 09:14

Such an interesting conversation, I dont redirect to hear such disparate views amongst women, we must move in very different circles.

I'm mid 40s and can only think of 2 of my female friends/colleagues (all in roles likely to be equivalent salary to their DH) who worked FT when kids were younger. One was the main bread winner, the other I don't know the reason but I know she cried most days for the first few months and said she wished she didn't have to. I have other professional friends who went back PT but also said they missed their kids and wished they didn't have to.

It may well be upbringing rather than biology but I do think a lot of women want to be primary carer. The whole 'childcare is more than my salary so I'm sahm' is imo used by those who want to be home with their kids (or who didn't like working).

So I really don't think dropping your career ball will be the primary reason for not having kids. Most (all) women I knew wanted kids and wanted to be the primary carer. Then they may or may not have had shitty lives because of feckless husbands. But my knowledge is I guess 15-20 years out of date, maybe today's 20 somethings do not want kids because they've grown up hearing about the insane cost of nursery, seen how their mothers gave up all their free time to raise them, don't see motherhood as any sort of valued and respected role.

I work with women from Poland. There is a strong push there to get young women to procreate. Asking them to have kids before continuing their education, financial incentives for doing so. I don't know where the fathers in this situation are supposed to come from? Doubt there are many 18 yo men who want to be father's. Maybe a move back to 10 year plus age gaps?

TheMoops · 21/05/2023 09:25

Im just surpised some people only know FT or non working mothers.

Me too. I know a mix although the majority of my friends and social circle work full time.
I only know one SAHM and a small number of part time workers.

Most people I know enjoy their jobs too, so this picture of women crying about returning to work or resenting having to work isn't something I've experienced personally (although I know some women do feel that way)

The biggest influence in my social circle is that the vast majority of us are in relationships with men who more than pull their weight- dual career couples who both value each others careers and take equal responsibility for childcare.

Regalred · 21/05/2023 09:29

Tell that to my boss who quite obviously does not put her own child first. Financially, maybe, but otherwise motherhood is nowhere near the top of her list of priorities.