Men: you’re the cause of our baby crisis

[reegee]

Interesting article in the Times today. It's surely a valid point that Young women should consider the contribution to parenting that a partner might offer when considering having a baby?

Men: you’re the cause of our baby crisis

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/men-youre-the-cause-of-our-baby-crisis-qgqq288db?shareToken=5ca2dd91b4d7a7d64672da6f3bacdf7f

The other partners attitude also comes into it such as my husband doesn't believe his career is more important than mine simply because he has a penis.

Timing too. We didn't have a child until we were both in senior roles and were able to be more flexible because going back to attitudes, we don't see me as the default parent because I'm the mother so we both take responsibility for nursery drop offs/pick ups, taking time off if our son can't be at nursery etc.

It isn't biology influencing those choices you see, it is society. It is incredibly hard to go against the norm, especially as a woman when you are called selfish etc for going back full time and made to feel like you should feel guilty for it.

There's no way I can subscribe to this idea that men and women are exactly the same as each other in the brain, otherwise our behaviour would be indistinguishable to each other.

And yet, in different countries around the world, the number of tubes men and women put their legs in is different - sometimes to each other, sometimes to other countries, at some points in history heavily policed or an actual offence to put your legs in the wrong number of fabric tubes.

How trivial is the number of fabric tubes in your lower garments, yet how strongly enforced it is! Are you suggesting that a Scottish man has a different sort of brain to an English man? A brain more like an English woman perhap?

Or do you think it's just could be societal pressure?

Societal pressure/culture is extremely effective.

The other partners attitude also comes into it such as my husband doesn't believe his career is more important than mine simply because he has a penis.

This! My DH earns more than me but that's not surprising as he's 11 years older....however, that doesn't stop him doing his fair share of schools runs and sick days etc. This has allowed my career to flourish because at no point was I having to sacrifice my work so he could progress in his.

You can have children and a career, the “doing it all” is trying to have a career and be primary caregiver for your children. You can’t do both, and the lie that is sold to women imho is that mothers must be primary caregiver for their children due to biology of women being superior nurturers/parents and therefore it is best for baby/children if she doesn’t step back.

So women are conditioned from birth feel like if they have children, they cannot step back and co-parent in an egalitarian relationship or have a SAHD be the primary parent because that’s unnatural and would somehow harm their children. A pp posted Pew research that showed that even in egalitarian relationships, where both partners work FT and make around half the household income, the men do the overtime hours at work, the DIY and a bit of household chores while the women do almost all the childcare and household chores- mostly related to child care I would think things like laundry, cooking meals, tidying child toys up.

Men are likewise conditioned from birth to believe the same biological mythos of mum knows best, mum is the best at parenting, mum is best for the children and so they are conditioned to defer to their partner on child care decisions and still they are conditioned to be providers, DIY guys about the house, and entertain children to give mum “a break.”

Our entire society is based on this belief and all the structures encourage it. My DH and I faced significant stigma and judgement for him being a SAHD and myself being a sole breadwinner. I have been ostracised by school mums for making the error of mentioning at a school fundraiser that I’d just come back from a month long business trip to the south Atlantic in which I got stuck in Antigua during a tropical storm and so had been gone for 7 weeks and my poor DH felt like a single dad because of it. The comment said to me was “why’d you bother to have kids if you’re not going to even be home half the time?” No one would say that to a man. After that, I downplay my job and never mention travel to other school mums as the disapproval is palpable. I also get lots of pity about my DH and assumptions made about his intelligence and lack of a job, many assume I am breadwinner not by choice, but due to a lazy cocklodger of a DH. It is so exhausting to face the constant judgement.

My job required travel, and I didn’t see why I should get a new job with no travel or hinder my career when the children had a capable and loving parent home with them 24/7. My philosophy was if I am going to be the breadwinner, then I want to be paid as much as possible to be away from my children each day.

The DC are older now and my DH is still primary parent. He works PT for a charity and his income is going towards saving for Uni fees.

It is incredibly hard to go against the norm, especially as a woman when you are called selfish etc for going back full time and made to feel like you should feel guilty for it.

Now imagine what childfree women go through!

Apparently the key to solving the problem is unplanned childlessness. Most women still want children, and if they have 1 they usually have 2. But there are a lot of women these days that want to have children “one day” , but for whatever reason, financial, job, lack of willing partner, time runs out.

this is a very interesting watch

My husband travelled extensively and people did make negative comments to him all the time about missing out. There were sympathetic comments too about how hard it must be for him, what a sacrifice he was making. But also lots of 'you will regret this when you are older' and lots of 'noone looks back and wishes they spent more time in the office' comments too.

Recently an opportunity came up at work which involved some minimal travel. I wasn't one of those put forward so I enquired about what I could improve etc going forward and was met with a surprised ''Oh, we didn't think you'd want to leave your baby''.

Of the significant number who do not want children, I think a great number could be persuaded too if not expected to take on the current social obligations of motherhood. From watching many childfree youtube videos I think a lot of women just see the current situation as a trap for women; which with most men in the world, it is.

Also, look how many women say they only stuck to 1 or 2 because of a useless partner or finances or stress etc? I think this is also a blocking factor.

Kind of agree with the rest. I think more men trap women into children than you might realize, it is used as a form of control. Many men want to pass on their "legacy"/name but not really raise kids.

Yes, I agree women could be persuaded to have children but I don’t think they should be persuaded to have children, you know? There is more than enough pressure on women to want babies that we should not be looking to increase if but decrease it. I do agree economics is a barrier to women who do want children but cannot have them, and is an enduring problem that is probably bigger than infertility.

The current society is a trap for women. I think it’s often because we, men and women, are still being fed generations old messages as to ideal gender roles despite progressing towards egalitarian laws and opportunities. There is some catching up to do for us all. I think it is both women not stepping back from motherhood=primary parent as much as men not stepping up to fatherhood=full co-parent. Trends though do show some progress on this front though as % SAHDs of SAHPs are increasing and even though research still shows mums doing the bulk of child rearing, long term, there is a gradual shift going on. It’s the kind of foundational change that is going to take a few more generations to accomplish.

I agree there is inadvertent trapping by men who agree to children on the promise of co-parenting but then fall short when the first child is born and then any more children. I think in many cases, both partners find themselves caving in to the inevitable social pressures which isn’t just friends, acquaintances, employers but often through families as well. You have grandparents pressuring the mother to be home because that is how their generation did it. You have them lecturing the father on how he must step up his game at work as his partner will be on maternity and then children are expensive and it’s the man’s role to take care of them both. It’s insidious and constant. I loathe the 4th trimester stuff being pumped out by health professionals because it is reactionary and it’s sole purpose imho is to counter-act women like me who went right back to work and to trap us for a minimum of a year after childbirth doing nothing but baby care.

Anyone else find it generally depressing that even people on this thread will look at you, see you're female, and assume your skills are "being accommodating" and your male equivalent good at finance? And that these same beliefs pervade hiring processes, influence children's career or family planning choices ("maybe I shouldn't have kids as I'm not naturally accommodating and therefore not truly a woman in a way these real mothers are").

The gender pay gap is the biggest and most obvious reason that women choose to reduce or stop their working hours. Saying that men are allowed to doesn't change this. As women's wages rise, i think we will see more equality. I've definitely noticed it even between my two children's peer groups.

Again, no-one can say what specific parenting things a woman can do that a man can't (excluding things relying on physical strength and size). Just this general shrug and "well obviously women are better at changing nappies - don't you want your child to have the BEST nappy-changer?" attitude.

I do not want and have never wanted children. Nothing would convince me other wise.

"Persuade" might not be the right word here. Women who think the disadvantages of having children outweigh the positives will probably find the scales tip in the positive direction. That is not a bad thing to me. Generally, women who are thinkers and consider things carefully having children at all might be a good thing. There is a stat that the more intelligent a woman is the fewer children she will have. But I don't think anyone should be pressured.

I hate that too. I hate the thought that women can not be rational and mothers as well.

It is not what that poster was saying though @stealthbanana

I think her point is that when you have kids you keep going at work but the priority has shifted - to the kids.

Seems intuitive.

If it didn't we would be extinct by now.

I can often tell when a space has been designed by a man or by a woman.

I can often tell when a female character has been written by a man or by a woman.

I can often read an article in the paper and know that it is a male writing it.

There has been a spike in young men getting vasectomies in the USA.

Due to abortion being made illegal. Which makes me furious.

I can often tell when a space has been designed by a man or by a woman.

I can often tell when a female character has been written by a man or by a woman.

I can often read an article in the paper and know that it is a male writing it.

And would you say that's due to biology or the lived experience of being a man or woman?

The second two are a bit of a cheat because you see the authors name before you even start reading.

Not always so though Release - do you always look at the writter credits before watching a television series, or when you click on a newspaper/magazine/think piece article?

I definately don't.

I think your mind subconsciously registers them even if you aren’t actively staring at them.

While the tone (and possibly context and content) of writing might indicate whether the author is male or female, the quality of writing wouldn't..... and I guess that's the point being made.

Somebody's sex doesn't impact their ability to write just like it doesn't make you a better parent or more suited to a high flying career.

Yea these cliches are silly. My mother said she wished she did work a bit longer in the office. She was a predominantly SAHM until we went to primary school when she became a nursery teacher, then went into an office role when we at secondary. She loved working in the office job, she’s a very intelligent and capable woman, but never did any further education and my father was the breadwinner.

If I’m being completely honest, I never saw her as an intelligent capable person who had other interests outside our family when growing up, yet I did with my father. I have a great relationship with both of them and I know they did struggle financially at some points, especially when my father was made redundant. My father did zero cooking, occasional housework, but would be absolutely incompetent on his own - this has changed now. I knew I didn’t want a relationship like that. I have a husband who is my equal in every way and more than competent - I could go away for a month and know everything would be ticking over like clockwork.

Our child is my parent’s first grandchild and they’ve both said how great they think our set up is, my mum said she was envious (in a good way!), as she sees how we all our together and there is little stress and no resentment.

Now I've read differently regarding our so called longer life spans. I've read that it isn't actually true at a foundational level and our modern lifespans are facilitated by lots of medical intervention compared to the past where provided you survived the infant (and for a woman childbirthing) years averagely people lived for a long time.

1 in 2 they are saying now, people will get cancer. Diabetes rates have risen exponentially. The big canary in the coal mine for industrialised countries is increasing rates of allergy and autoimmune disease these diseases are largely ignored because they don't generate money for pharmaceuticals. But they are a burgeoning problem. Some say caused by the supposedly healthy diets and lifestyles we have.

I also think claims about rolling back aging are somewhat overstated, it's an unequal world and that inequality continues to be the biggest driving factor in health and lifespan (what food you can afford for instance, how much leisure time you have for exercise and relaxation, getting the advice of a good hormone specialist) But it would be nice. I'm pessimistic. But the book sounds intriguing going to check it out.

Of course you can’t do it all. You can’t be a primary caregiver to a child and work 100% at your career. No man or woman can do it all. Ideally it was more 50/50 where both caregivers could afford to work part time and do primary caregiver part time. Sadly that’s not affordable for most people anymore.

There are eostrogen receptors in almost every cell in a womans body.The female body starts to fill up on it around puberty until it gets rid of it in menopause. Not so men.

There HAS to be differences between the brians of the sexes.

Not to say that women need to go back home and are the only ones with capacity for child raising.