Men: you’re the cause of our baby crisis

[reegee]

Interesting article in the Times today. It's surely a valid point that Young women should consider the contribution to parenting that a partner might offer when considering having a baby?

Men: you’re the cause of our baby crisis

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/men-youre-the-cause-of-our-baby-crisis-qgqq288db?shareToken=5ca2dd91b4d7a7d64672da6f3bacdf7f

*are NOT interchangeable

If only the politicians could go back to the good old days of WOMEN, KNOW YOUR PLACE.

Because when women are given a choice about setting fire to their careers, being left destitute by feckless fathers, being expected to provide thousands of invisible hours caring for elders and raising children and running homes, earning a pittance in comparison to their male counterparts and being treated like domestic appliances / broodmares / sex objects with no feelings, having to carry the burden of parenthood while the men carry on regardless - women say NO THANKS.

But women, eh? What right do we have to keep our precious eggs to ourselves? Well, according to certain nations and religions, and many men - none.

100 percent agree with this.

Mum is the most important role in the world to your children, and it’s a real shame that this is devalued.

I guess I'm coming from a starting point and a view that men and women in a very general sense, have different qualities.

Is this based on data, or on the people you have observed?
I don't tend to have the qualities that people associate with being female. How does your belief fit in with that? Should policies be made for the qualities that most women are assumed to have, and tough luck if you're female and don't have them?

Could you please answer what I asked previously- what is specific to being a "mother" that is different from being a "parent"?

I promise I'm not asking aggressively! I'm really interested in this belief and what it means.

I think men need to also think properly about whether they want to have children, how many, and when from an earlier age. People are asking girls this stuff really from school age onwards, so it focuses the mind. Men need to build this into their plans - obviously lots do but it's INCREDIBLE how many stories I've heard/experienced where nice men want kids but are unaware of things like the menopause and when it kicks in, how long it can take to conceive, the rate of miscarriage and so on. So you have a female partner wanting to get started at say 32 and the man wanting to wait a few years and then being totally dumbstruck when they don't get a baby on first shag at 37.

Let's just start telling our boys more, asking them more about this stuff. They need to be far more realistic. I bet there are a lot of disappointed men who didn't really think about it and are then with a same age partner in their forties and dismayed to find the choice has been made for them.

I guess I'm coming from a starting point and a view that men and women in a very general sense, have different qualities.

Actually, the evidence shows that men and women aren't that different. Many of the differences in personality are really shaped by society and societal expectations. even the language used to describe similar qualities in men and women is different (...for example.....assertive vs bossy)

There is no difference in how me and DH parent or our ability to parent.....but society treats us very differently. For example, when I travel for work people always ask my DH how he is coping and if he 'survived'. Nobody has ever checked in on me when DH is away.

I do wish people would realise that men and women are fundamentally different. Biology has dictated this. I feel like women have been sold a lie that we can and should 'do it all' (i.e. career and children), and yet when I see women 'doing it all' they are miserable and burnt out.

When women have children, they are less inclined to work and they start to prioritise children over work. When men have children, they are more motivated to work. Our brains are wired differently to each other.

I am a SAHM with 2 young children and my DH is self employed. He has complete freedom to go to business meetings, have calls etc.. without worrying about childcare and I believe this has hugely accelerated his earnings.

From my perspective, I have the freedom to enjoy the children with all the time in the world, without any financial burdens as he has that responsibility and I'm happy not to worry about that side of things.

I am the happiest I've ever been in my life, and the most relaxed. Yet, when I speak to others who both work and have children, they almost seem sympathetic to me for being the 'lesser half' in some way, despite the fact that none of them are happy and they are all stressed by having to 'do it all'.

These women also tend to stop at 1-2 children as they feel overwhelmed by it all. I am planning 4 altogether and feel this won't put too much stress on our personal home life setup.

Motherhood is hugely undervalued in society and 'having it all' is hugely overrated.

I do wish people would realise that men and women are fundamentally different.

Can you give an example of one task that you could look at the results of and reliably tell whether the person doing it was male or female?

When women have children, they are less inclined to work and they start to prioritise children over work. When men have children, they are more motivated to work. Our brains are wired differently to each other.

Where is the evidence that women are biologically predetermined to be less inclined to work once they've had children ....I mean form a biological perspective NOT societal expectations? Also, what evidence do you have that shows men and women's brains are wired differently?

**spoiler alert, there isn't any.

@gottogo23 , it's great to hear that you are happy. However, you've given up your earning potential, your career progression and pension contributions. What has your husband set up to protect you in the future?

Being happy for someone else to be in charge of your financial future is a "you" thing, not a "woman" thing, gottogo I like nothing more than sitting down with a spreadsheet and going through finance products. Not even darning socks!

@HyggeTygge obviously men don't all sit completely in one category and women in another. Some men will be brilliant at being SAHDs while some women will earn 5 times the average salary. On the whole, men tend to have better personality traits for business and career (less accommodating, more selfish, more confident), while women have personality traits suited more for child rearing (more accommodating, more nurturing, more giving).

@TheMoops the proof is in the pudding. Women stop working far more than men when they have children. There's no law to tell women to stop working, nor I believe is there much societal pressure to do so. I believe there is more pressure to stay in work for women.

I find the sarcastic 'I prefer to do spreadsheets than darn socks' attitude from people to me interesting. What is your setup and are you genuinely happy?
Most happy people feel no desire to snipe at others.

I worked full time for 13 years before having children, so I've certainly been in the rat race. It's only now I feel fulfilled in life and at my least stressed out.

I understand it's more of a financial risk to be a SAHM, but why go through life with a pessimistic 'if we split up' type of attitude. Of course that could happen, but you should be able to trust your partner implicitly. If not, then consider you married the wrong person. The idea of marrying someone, and then trying to keep yourselves financially independent of each other, is counterproductive.

The idea of marrying someone, and then trying to keep yourselves financially independent of each other, is counterproductive.

It's not a question of being independent now, but people do split up sometimes. You would need, I would think, at least agreement on spousal support for some time to allow you to re-enter the workforce if the worst happened. Has he even insured himself in the event of his death to provide an adequate income for you and the children?

Yes, we've discussed all financial matters and I'm protected as much as I can be. We have life insurance too.

People don’t split up “sometimes”. They split up almost 50% of the time! If I asked you to give me your life savings with a 50% chance I’d give them back, would you? I’d venture to suggest not.

but regardless of all that, I’m also interested in these inherent biological qualities that make men so much better adapted to the workforce and women to the home?

The proof isn’t in the pudding is it? Otherwise women wouldn’t be having fewer children when given the choice to do so. Which is what the OP was about.

What I have seen over the last 60 years.

Women being granted equality in pay.
Women working being socially acceptable at all levels, less guilt tripping etc.

Cost of living rises in capitalist society to suck all the money from the increased working by women, to the point that both members of a couple have to work.

Mind you, when I was in my teens,we were told the "white heat of technology" would mean a 20 hour working week well before 2000!!

@stealthbanana I'm not sure what the difficulty is seeing the inherent biological differences. It's plain obvious.

Men sit at the top of society doing the 'big important jobs', they earn more than women. This is factually true here:

https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/earningsandworkinghours/bulletins/genderpaygapintheuk/2022

Far more men go into self employment than women:

https://www.statista.com/statistics/318458/self-employment-in-the-uk-by-gender/

The below shows that women are in the workplace far less than men post children although it has been on the up in the last few decades:

https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/employmentandemployeetypes/articles/familiesandthelabourmarketengland/2021

Just have a Google and look at the statistics of it all.

In regards to your first question, 'People don’t split up “sometimes”. They split up almost 50% of the time! If I asked you to give me your life savings with a 50% chance I’d give them back, would you?'

Absolutely not! But then I don't know you and haven't decided to marry you! I trust my husband.

the proof is in the pudding. Women stop working far more than men when they have children. There's no law to tell women to stop working, nor I believe is there much societal pressure to do so. I believe there is more pressure to stay in work for women.

Unfortunately you're wrong. I research this for a living and there is no evidence that the difference in men and women's participation in the labour market is due to biology (once you remove pregnancy and maternity leave from the equation).
There is, however, a significant amount of research and evidence demonstrating the societal barriers women face in society and the labour market - right down to how women make career choices.
The biggest and most recent bit of evidence is the pandemic - women's careers were disproportionately impacted. It showed that once you remove childcare women's participation in work and work related activities reduced significantly. That wasn't due to biology that was societal expectations around childcare and caring responsibilities ( as well as the type of sectors where women are overrepresented)

I think that women have a child, go back to work thinking everything will be 50/50 with the husband. This doesn't work out well as it turns out the husband doesn't care about the housework as much and prioritises his work over the house/child, then that results in her not wanting another child as she's so stressed with it all.

So many discussions about careers and babies focus on the early years. I worked part time for about 15 years. Now, at almost 50, I work full time, am well paid, enjoy my adult and teenage children and have zillions of hobbies. No-one can remember the 15 years in which I worked part time. However, many men do not contribute and I got worn down by my husband. We are now divorced and my time is so freed up. Not all men are capable of contributing enough to sustain a marriage. Oh, and on divorce, assests are split, so any women who feel that they were taken advantage of will get half the pension pot of the man!

and you think these differences are due to biology?
That men a re biologically programmed to earn more money and be more successful in their careers???

Growing up my best friend was from a large family, and I loved visiting their house. It made me want a large family of my own, but I waited until I met someone who wanted a child, which meant waiting until I was older, and then only being able to have one child. Are Rees-Mogg et al proposing that the Govt should fund women to become single parents when young? What would that involve, generous benefits and free nursery so that they, their children, and their careers are not disbenefited? No, I didn’t think so.
In the end my partner walked out when our child was born and the realities hit, so I ended up being a single parent when older and knackered instead of young and energetic. I was at least in a better position in my career, and could just about cover the mortgage and nursery, by dint of massively extending my mortgage and living somewhere too small. I’m paying off extra now, so may finish paying the mortgage by the time I’m 68. Great! If only I’d been sensible enough to be born wealthy, or at least manage to find a man who would stick around, or at least pay child maintenance.

I'm surprised that young women still want to have children in our society.