Men: you’re the cause of our baby crisis

[reegee]

Interesting article in the Times today. It's surely a valid point that Young women should consider the contribution to parenting that a partner might offer when considering having a baby?

Men: you’re the cause of our baby crisis

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/men-youre-the-cause-of-our-baby-crisis-qgqq288db?shareToken=5ca2dd91b4d7a7d64672da6f3bacdf7f

Yes @Neurodiversitydoctor this is what the Jessica grose article reported on a couple of weeks ago - here

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/04/26/opinion/remote-work-moms-dads.html?unlocked_article_code=f4lhURucT-XZknoX10KOgaLxjPqRjzMwUjahKvb416fOZl82osWgzDb3sYwDQP1Qdu_d8DDrsV-33K9wunO_kI7ffWuUe3YY69EtaJZt37RxYajniiuk0QJDKqk44-MicUIp-7wMEQVdYbHk2n9pX6wR-FNMhPzRJZT3gcVf8FLGdys8t5yle9egwDMFZI5el8_jBXzXPEiQiJ_g5W8eY96cFIRO25CULSb3wAZuhCONVatO8VgJN8c3pvAgowSMJVgZlsk01hnwhsDXI-jjYCZNyEdibk4iTaK4LSTaql0DPXSg3GMKrSLzADSBi8wHue3pShbFn6hxT386_EUr&smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare

to summarise the key finding from the study that’s reported on

This [women doing more caregiving than men] is true in egalitarian marriages — where both spouses earn roughly the same amount of money — and in marriages where the wife is the primary earner. The only marriage type where husbands devote more time to caregiving than their wives is one in which the wife is the sole breadwinner. In those marriages, wives and husbands spend roughly the same amount of time per week on household chores.

no wonder women don’t want to have kids!

For me the difference I see is that women take the responsibility for the children - even when they continue working, they realise that if they don't do whatever it is, then it won't get done.

I earned more than ex pre-kids. I had greater capacity for career progression. I can pinpoint the moment when our relationship started to die for me - it was when, after being freelance until my youngest turned 1 (and whilst not being the 'breadwinner', I certainly pulled my weight income-wise - especially since I did it entirely around the kids), I went looking for a 'proper' job again, had excellent offers, and he refused to even ask about flexing his hours so he could do drop-offs (he'd made all the right noises while I was job-hunting!). I lost so much respect for him, and whilst I hoped he would claw it back, he never did.

And I've seen this with friends and family to a greater or lesser extent - from the joke that when mum's away dad and the kids just all sit around in their pants eating takeaway pizza, to women driving themselves into the ground because their partner can't be bothered to perform basic familial duties like taking the kids to sports clubs.

I know it's American but I honestly don't think it's massively different over here.

This is underlined by so much racism. They are panicking because it’s western countries where birth rates are falling. There’s plenty of babies being born in the world overall.

Sorry but anyone who says "out of the pool of mothers I know, the fact that they choose to stay home with kids proves that there is a significant biological urge to do this for the female sex class as a whole" must be deliberately ignoring the bigger picture (and doesn't care about actual, measured data).

Culturally and historically speaking it's only been the blink of an eye since contraception allowed women to have more control over family planning, since women were even conceived of having equal skills and potential in the workplace as men, and the legal allowances to work towards equality on this (parental leave, etc). It takes generations for changes, attitudes and opportunities to change.

In most cases it's a simple result of finances.
In my own experience I took time off/ reduced role because my work commanded far less pay and was more flexible than DH's (flexibility has improved a bit for both of us since Covid) AND I felt an overwhelming amount of guilt thinking about other childcare - mainly from comments on MN etc. There is of course a biological aspect if you breastfeed but that doesn't apply as a blanket rule to all women and all situations.

I know couples where they took shared parental leave, which is great if it works out financially. Within the home my DH does equal shares of "parenting" including all bedtime, lots of school run, getting bags ready etc. It's actually positive imo that he as a senior person in a private sector company is seen to do this (have flexibility around kids).

Men and women have different roles, biologically. We are not the same, and that becomes abundantly clear when we go through pregnancy, labour and child rearing.
I support women doing whatever the fuck they want but we do need to acknowledge that being a mother is a whole role, its difficult, and it can't easily be put to the side for careers etc.

I don't know that I agree - maybe you see me as less of a woman or mother for asking - but beyond birth and breastfeeding, what role do mothers do that fathers can't? I.e. what is specific to being a "mother" that is different from being a "parent"?

It's actually positive imo that he as a senior person in a private sector company is seen to do this (have flexibility around kids).

I totally agree - I used that exact argument with my ex.

And I demonstrate it now as a single mother - I'm C-level, but don't hide my kids - I make it clear that I'm not available between x and y times because of school run or making dinner etc. and don't apologise for it. It is very important to model that behaviour.

(oh, and of course, I'm reasonable with my staff about their own kids/responsibilities!)

Does extra stuff/work then get dumped on childfree/childless people?

I’ve often seen and feel like peoplw who don’t have kids are treated like they don’t matter/have a life/importance.
And then they are shamed for not having kids.
Holidays are often assumed to belong to those with kids etc.

Things should be fair, but not on the expence of those who don’t have kids.

I am 48 and I do not know one woman who would put their career over their children when they were young, they would now they are older but under 10's, none of them wanted the full-on career.

I'm 41 with a child under 10 and I have a full on career that involves long hours and travel.

I also know lots of other women in my situation.
You really can't generalise based on only your own experience

I don't know that I agree - maybe you see me as less of a woman or mother for asking - but beyond birth and breastfeeding, what role do mothers do that fathers can't? I.e. what is specific to being a "mother" that is different from being a "parent"?

I've asked this question on multiple threads before. I never get a clear answer or an answer that doesn't draw on outdated stereotypes or research.

IME flexible working patterns within reasonable limits benefit everyone. This may have changed post- pandemic but men tend to achieve flexibility by stealth, women being more upfront about asking for it.

In fact I would go further children actively need involved Fathers beyond the age of 12-18m. Fathers fulfill needs and roles that mothers struggle to do alone, Fathers encourage more adventurous, outdoor and risk taking play. They are more likely to support independence and self reliance. Male care givers are important for children. Personally I favour the Scandinavian and some one said German model of "use it or lose it" 3-6 months of ring fenced paid leave for the non birthing parent.

My DP shares the load 50-50. It's taken a while to get there though.

I think we forget How hard it is for guys to raise expectations that they parent.

DP struggled for years with a very deep rooted (& probably well founded) view that fathers are expected to be fully committed at work in a way mothers aren't expected to be.

At one point he wanted to spend more time with the kids and to him that meant stopping work. I pointed out he could take a year's paternity leave or go part time but it was just inconceivable to him. The idea of telling his boss that was his plan was so much worse than stopping work.

For every boss and workplace that celebrates a father visibly prioritising family commitments and their fair share of parenting I'd guess there's
5 that reacts negatively and penalises a man more than a woman for doing the school run. So many senior men have built careers with a woman doing the family stuff they just expect that.

It's a big structural issue that will change, but slowly.

Will it though ? Participation of women in the work force reached a peak in 2000 and has subsequently declined. 10 years ago I would have agreed with you, now not so much.

Personally I favour the Scandinavian and some one said German model of "use it or lose it" 3-6 months of ring fenced paid leave for the non birthing parent.

I absolutely agree.

Does extra stuff/work then get dumped on childfree/childless people?

Only if you've got poor management! Is it really that hard to avoid the 2 hours I need to dropoff/fetch/feed my kids when booking a meeting? No, not normally. Is there some urgent issue that really can't wait 30 mins for me to get somewhere I can park up and help out? Very rarely - and if there was, then I've failed again as a manager by being a single point of failure.

Flexible working works both ways too - in return for not taking calls (unless urgent) between 5 and 6 (I work with international clients), I'm happy to get up early/stay up late to take the calls. If my work were to be utterly strict with the hours I was to be glued to my desk, then similarly, I would be strict back!

It's the only way I've managed to combine motherhood and career in a way that works for me and my kids. It means I can always attend sports day, I can drop them off every morning, pick them up alternately with a minder who takes them for a couple of hours some days after school etc. Yes, it doesn't work for all roles, and it takes some scheduling effort on the part of the job to discover what works best for who (eg. when I was child free I worked weekends because I preferred having days off in the week), but it works perfectly well for a lot more jobs than admit it, and that's because the career working world was set up for men who tend not to prioritise their kids.

This, also and I really need to go back to work in a minute, for this system to work it requires both men and women to be flexible. Otherwise all the flex is expected of the woman and you really can't give your best if you can't ever get in early, stay late, go into the office an hour away or go on a conference. But by sharing from the very outset the inconveniences of combining parenthood with paid employment we all win, but most of all our children.

"Family values", that's women doing everything yet still working full time these days.
The only people who "have it all" are men.

I went part time once my first was born, and stopped when the third was born as childcare would have cost more than I was making.

I think this encapsulates the whole issue. In effect, what you're saying is that childcare is your primary responsibility and if you can't earn more than it costs to get it, you have to take the step back. None of this impacts your partner in the same way. He doesn't have to prove his financial worth in this way, it isn't his salary vs childcare as the calculation. This lets him off the hook. It's a shame for women, I've heard this a few times.

I still think the cost of childcare is one of the biggest reasons why women drop their hours when they go back to work. No reason at all why it needs to be women who drop the hours but I do think that if childcare was cheaper and easier to access there would be a lot more women with young in the workplace. Which will in turn help it to become a much more normal thing.

It interesting hearing about different peoples social circles and what they’ve done in regards to work/children.

Out of the women I know with children I am the only one who works full time. I did change my workplace when I returned after maternity leave to a more family friendly practice but it was still a good step up in salary. And I enjoy the job role.

Me and DH probably are the most 50/50 in our parenting compared to the other people we know. DS doesn’t really have a default parent and if anything DH probably does more than me because I’m pregnant with the next one and knackered most of the time.

The other profession mothers I know dropped to 4 days a week and then I have friends who do less days than that or have decided to be a SAHM whilst their children are small. The SAHMs generally have more than 2 children (save on childcare) or already had high earning husbands.

Is their not a quote from a female comedian that goes something along the lines of ‘I don’t regret having children but if I had my chance to do it all again, I’d be a dad instead’

As we were saying
https://inews.co.uk/news/childcare-two-children-cost-women-forced-give-up-careers-2346252?ito=push-notification&ci=j0V6kbIe_n&cri=gBh5MPS8Te&si=1JEIITCOgWnh&xi=d55b9693-2d55-46c2-8fb3-256bea1a1f9d&ai=2346252

The finances at the moment really do make things difficult.

Though the numbers are higher and I really do think it needs improvement I find it hard to know how different it is for us now compared to past generations. The colour still drains from my parents faces when they remember how much they paid for nursery 20-30 years ago, more than their mortgage.

We’ll just about break even each month with two in childcare but it will gradually get easier as the amount of free hours increase for each child. But we did also choose to have kids close together, did the maths and worked out that we could make it work, if not we probably would have had a bigger gap. We have the luxury of being young enough to have time on our side.

@HyggeTygge @TheMoops @Neurodiversitydoctor

Of course I don't think less of you ad a mother or a woman for asking!  @HyggeTygge

I believe both mothers and involved fathers are incredibly important to a child development. I guess I'm coming from a starting point and a view that men and women in a very general sense, have different qualities. And therefore mothers and fathers have different roles. If you are not starting from that point then you won't agree with me that a mother and a father are interchangeable.
Biologically, as mothers we are incredibly linked to our children, mitochondrial DNA, the familiarity from living and growing inside us etc, I believe that pull is strong and a young child's desire to be with their mother is biological as well as structural.
This is all just my personal feelings about the matter of course. But a lack of mother and a lack of father are very different things.