Men: you’re the cause of our baby crisis

[reegee]

Interesting article in the Times today. It's surely a valid point that Young women should consider the contribution to parenting that a partner might offer when considering having a baby?

Men: you’re the cause of our baby crisis

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/men-youre-the-cause-of-our-baby-crisis-qgqq288db?shareToken=5ca2dd91b4d7a7d64672da6f3bacdf7f

If a father works full time, he is a responsible and providing parent and puts his family first.
If a mother works full time, she is selfish and self- indulgent and puts her own needs first.
I hate this.

Ps, gotogo23, ,male and female brains are not wired differently, please read The Gendered Brain by Gina Rippon. It's a lie we are sold.

Okay, so if we're the same as men in the brain then why are women so unhappy nowadays? We have the same legal rights as men, we can do whatever we like and yet we're unhappy. What do you think is the cause?

Okay, so if we're the same as men in the brain then why are women so unhappy nowadays? We have the same legal rights as men, we can do whatever we like and yet we're unhappy. What do you think is the cause?

We may have the same legal rights and protections as men but that doesn't mean we have equality.

I'd also recommend The Gendered Brain but also Delusions of Gender and invisible Women

obviously men don't all sit completely in one category and women in another. Some men will be brilliant at being SAHDs while some women will earn 5 times the average salary. On the whole, men tend to have better personality traits for business and career (less accommodating, more selfish, more confident), while women have personality traits suited more for child rearing (more accommodating, more nurturing, more giving).

Ok - so if the correlation between "xyz traits" and "sex" is so weak, what use is it to use them as a basis for anything (policy, pay, law etc)? What does it achieve to say "most women are good at empathy, so let's make sure we give the empathy job to a woman" if sex is a poor indicator of it? Wouldn't it be better to group people, regardless of sex, by their traits where appropriate, instead of using a very poor proxy?
I genuinely feel disadvantaged by being assumed to have the "opposite" (loosely speaking) skill set that I do. Who does this benefit? Genuine question - not rhetoric - who?

Okay but let's delve into that more. Why do we still not have equality? Surely if all legal rights are the same and men and women's brains are exactly the same, it would all be equal?

Okay, so if we're the same as men in the brain then why are women so unhappy nowadays? We have the same legal rights as men, we can do whatever we like and yet we're unhappy. What do you think is the cause?

as per my first post in this thread. Sexist attitudes are strong and largely slow to change over generations. People are reluctant to engage with evidence that goes against their preconceptions. Women have hardly had any time, historically, being in charge of their fertility and careers.

I'm not unhappy, btw - I've been a sahp and worked, both have had their advantages and disadvantages for me in my specific situation, at those specific times. It would be madness for me to say "that suited me, all mothers should do that! "

Surely if all legal rights are the same and men and women's brains are exactly the same, it would all be equal?

Not at all - can you evidence why you have come to that conclusion? The weight of history, culture and societal attitudes is immense. We don't grow up, learn, work in a vacuum. I assume you don't think this about racial minorities being underrepresented in various top jobs...?

It’s not a good look to blame men for enabling women to do what they want to do which is stay home with children by stopping or reducing work.

I kept my career up and DH was a SAHD from birth to primary school age for our DC. I took off less time than you’d have to have an appendix removed.

This sounds like a bit of whinging about wanting both a high flying career and be a SAHM/PT working mum when you can’t have both. No one can. My DH gave up a career to be a SAHD but he would never blame me or think he is “unequal” because I enabled him to be the dad he wanted to be.

Men were legally allowed to rape their wives in my lifetime. The idea that bringing in a law suddenly stops that is crazy.

All those racists who say Black people aren't as successful as White people is because they are biologically inferior don't change their mind because the equality act is brought in. I'm amazed this needs explaining, to be honest.

On the whole, men tend to have better personality traits for business and career (less accommodating, more selfish, more confident), while women have personality traits suited more for child rearing (more accommodating, more nurturing, more giving).

This is so sexist, I do not even know where to begin. You’re judging the parent who doesn’t stay home with children as selfish from the start.

Sexism is ingrained. It happens from birth, I remember a study from several years ago that showed adults played with a baby differently based on if they were dressed in stereotypical boy clothes vs stereotypical girl clothes such as an adult was more likely to give a baby in a dress a doll to play with.

Even on this thread, a woman who goes back to work full time is putting her career before her children but no one says that about men who go back to work full time.

I find the sarcastic 'I prefer to do spreadsheets than darn socks' attitude from people to me interesting. What is your setup and are you genuinely happy?
Most happy people feel no desire to snipe at others.

Honestly it wasn't a snipe - it was supposed to be a lighthearted joke - hence smiley emoji.

Is he making pension contributions in your name ?

I believe that men are less susceptible to worrying about societal pressures, and this gets them further in society. I do think they are quite different. For instance, women are less likely to apply for higher paid jobs as they wonder if they're good enough for it. Men apply regardless and blag their way through it more. There's no way I can subscribe to this idea that men and women are exactly the same as each other in the brain, otherwise our behaviour would be indistinguishable to each other.

@HyggeTygge Of course I'm not saying that every mother should do as I do. I am giving you my experience which is that I'm happy with my 'traditional' life. My friends and acquaintances that have the more modern family setup (2 working parents) do seem to be more unhappy and stressed. I believe people should do whatever makes them the happiest and most fulfilled, and feel concerned that women are doing what they feel they 'should' (i.e. working and childcare), even if it's not what they really want.

@ReleasetheCrackHen if you want to translate that to 'everyone that works is selfish', then you are obviously looking to be offended. I can't help you with that.

Speak for yourself! I’m sorry you aren’t happy though. My husband and I both have senior jobs, similar hours, similar pay. Similar split with household tasks and childcare. We are both very happy, I wouldn’t change a thing. From your example men can do whatever they like, yet have nearly triple the suicide rate of women.

It's fine, I really wasn't offended. But it does seem to be a running theme that working mothers look down on SAHMs a bit. I find motherhood is undervalued more by other women than men!

Not at all - as i say, i was a sahm - i don't even know if anyone even darns socks these days away, but my stitching skills are cack-handed at best!

So do you have a pension in your own name which your loving DH who wants to protect your finacial interests pays into ?

I'm definitely not someone who "lives to work" either. I've thought about the benefits of paid work a lot over the years, and I think it's fairly uncommon to have a job you love and feel you actively benefit from - there are a lot of very shitty jobs that need doing, and no-one would begrudge giving those up if they could. But it's simplistic to say "working is always good for everyone" as much as it is to say staying home with the kids is. There are so many factors in deciding whether to work, where and when and how.

I believe that men are less susceptible to worrying about societal pressures, and this gets them further in society. I do think they are quite different. For instance, women are less likely to apply for higher paid jobs as they wonder if they're good enough for it. Men apply regardless and blag their way through it more.

This is 100% not due to biology though. Seriously, there is a ton of evidence to support the fact that these differences aren't biological.

There's no way I can subscribe to this idea that men and women are exactly the same as each other in the brain, otherwise our behaviour would be indistinguishable to each other.

Our brain and brain function is largely the same. As individuals we are of course different but there is no evidence that the difference in male and female behaviour is due to having different types of brain. Men do tend to be more likely to engage in violent behaviour but again, the extent this can be explained by biology (or more specifically testosterone) is not as straightforward as some people claim.

I am guessing you are younger than me, but by being out of the workforce you are missing out three times:
1)On the money you earn
2) On the opportunities you are not getting
3) Pension contributions

If your husband is only compensating you for one of these, he is doing you a disservice.

@gottogo23

I believe that men are less susceptible to worrying about societal pressures, and this gets them further in society. I do think they are quite different. For instance, women are less likely to apply for higher paid jobs as they wonder if they're good enough for it. Men apply regardless and blag their way through it more. There's no way I can subscribe to this idea that men and women are exactly the same as each other in the brain, otherwise our behaviour would be indistinguishable to each other.

That's because men and women are socialised differently. Women are socialised believe that they aren't worthy of the higher paid job and wonder if they are good enough because it is men who are socialised that they are the 'providers' and good enough for higher paid roles.

It's a societal issue, not biological.

Okay but let's delve into that more. Why do we still not have equality? Surely if all legal rights are the same and men and women's brains are exactly the same, it would all be equal?

because sexism exists...because societal expectations around the way men and women are supposed to act influence us from birth.

People of colour are still disadvantaged in many aspects of society. They have the same legal protections and rights as white people. Would you say this disadvantage is due to biology and that racism doesn't exist.

This is a genuine question - not an arsey one! But what do you mean when you say kill it at work but not at the expense of you children, as in work part time or flexibly around them? I struggle so much with this! Again meant genuinely!