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Feminism: chat

What are the goals of feminism?

171 replies

ThunderDad · 05/04/2023 20:23

I am interested to know what are the goals of feminism in 2023. I'm honestly curious as someone who doesn't know a whole lot about it.

OP posts:
TheShellBeach · 06/04/2023 17:39

Fairislefandango · 06/04/2023 17:33

Oh also, I'm wondering what you mean by allowing your wife to live to her full potential. From what you've said, it looks as if your idea of her full potential is being a mother and housekeeper. Is that her idea of her full potential too, or does she have other goals?

Maybe he can offload the "important admin" on to her.
Hmm

ThunderDad · 06/04/2023 17:39

TheShellBeach · 06/04/2023 17:31

How odd.
My husband and I do all the household tasks between us. We shared parenting, too, including getting up at night. I was breastfeeding but he got up and changed the nappy, then settled the baby back to sleep.
We both worked.
I do the important admin and he does all the floors, washing up and making breakfast. He gets all the shopping. Does the bins and the garden. We do DIY together. He tidies up.
Every day.
He doesn't help me out; he does his fair and equal share.

I suppose with my wife does more of the household stuff because I'm working. We have a very good relationship and understanding of our roles. I would say we work more or less equally hard but at different things. It would be difficult for her to pull in the kind of money that I do and it would be difficult for me to run the house and raise our kid as she does. The thing is she used to be a self-proclaimed feminist when she started dating. I'm not sure she is so keen on it any more. I'm just stating this as a fact, not making any aspersions about feminism.

OP posts:
TheShellBeach · 06/04/2023 17:40

ThunderDad · 06/04/2023 17:39

I suppose with my wife does more of the household stuff because I'm working. We have a very good relationship and understanding of our roles. I would say we work more or less equally hard but at different things. It would be difficult for her to pull in the kind of money that I do and it would be difficult for me to run the house and raise our kid as she does. The thing is she used to be a self-proclaimed feminist when she started dating. I'm not sure she is so keen on it any more. I'm just stating this as a fact, not making any aspersions about feminism.

Jesus.
We have a right misogynist here.
"Running the house" IS working.

Fairislefandango · 06/04/2023 17:42

I'm not sure she is so keen on it any more.

Not keen on women having equality with men? Or not keen on the things that you think feminism is?

ThunderDad · 06/04/2023 17:44

TheShellBeach · 06/04/2023 17:40

Jesus.
We have a right misogynist here.
"Running the house" IS working.

OK to clarify - I think this is a linguistic misunderstanding. By working I mean work which generates money. She also does work but it is work which does not generate money.

OP posts:
Newnamenewname109870 · 06/04/2023 17:44

That both men and women can feel safe and live a fulfilling life, reaching their potential despite their sexual differences.

Hoppinggreen · 06/04/2023 17:45

Avarua2 · 06/04/2023 17:30

Childish.

Naive

ThunderDad · 06/04/2023 19:56

Avarua2 · 05/04/2023 21:01

I want:
(1) No-one under the age of 21 to be allowed to, let alone encouraged to, be involved in any kind of porn or filming that is available online;
(2) Transgender or self-ID men to not be allowed to participate in womens' sports;
(3) Better recognition and shaming of toxic masculinity (of the Donald Trump, Epstein, Tiger Woods, basketballer/footballer/league-player variety, where women are props and sluts)
(4) Better recognition of the struggles and heroism of single mothers
(5) Old boys' professional networks to be blown wide open
(6) Transparency of salaries and benefits, so we can see how wide the gender pay gap REALLY is
(7) for midwifery to be recognised as just as valuable as surgery as a profession, paid EXTREMELY well

A lot of this seems very reasonable to me. (1) and (2) certainly. In particular (1) harms men and women. Porn is bad for everyone except the people profiting from it. One issue I see with reducing entry of girls into porn is that this is the kind of restriction that a more patriarchal society would tend to enforce. It is hard to see how we can reduce this without also reducing the right for women to choose how to lead their lives. Some clearly enter the industry voluntarily, albeit often because they are very desperate or confused.

(2) Yes self-ID in sports is absolutely preposterous.

(3, 4 + 5) I probably don't know enough to have an opinion on these. I would say, though, that it strikes me there is a very big difference between, say Trump and Epstein.

(7) well certainly it would be good to see birthing given more attention by the medical profession. We actually had our child in Japan where the situation is in many respects a lot better, particularly if you go down the natural route.

(6) Now this is the one where I have heard some persuasive counter-arguments. Some would say that the earning differences are the result of life choices, and that the hourly pay for the same work by men and women has no significant difference. I am sure you have all no doubt heard this rebuttal before but would be interested to hear views.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. These goals are tangible and make a lot of sense to me.

OP posts:
tellmewhentheLangshiplandscoz · 06/04/2023 20:07

tellmewhentheLangshiplandscoz
OP what are your goals to aid feminism?

That is a good question. Well in so far as I am subscribed to feminism, which it would seem has different meanings for everyone, I aid feminism by supporting my wife. As in I support her to be able to live to her full potential. I provide materially and give emotional support. I help to raise our child. I also show appreciation for the things she does for me. In short, I aim to be a good husband to my wife. This is feminism for me.

//

Ok so a starting point although I'm sure this arrangement benefits you too.

MrsTerryPratchett · 06/04/2023 20:22

BinturongsSmellOfPopcorn · 06/04/2023 14:27

I think I can save you some typing, Bernard.

Here you go, OP: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminism

I was just going to post this.

OP wrote: As far as I am aware, there is more than one school of thought when it comes to feminism in 2023.

Crack a fucking book and stop expecting women to do your homework.

Avarua2 · 06/04/2023 20:23

If a woman had started this thread would she be told to crack a fucking book?

MrsTerryPratchett · 06/04/2023 20:30

Avarua2 · 06/04/2023 20:23

If a woman had started this thread would she be told to crack a fucking book?

No.

ThunderDad · 06/04/2023 20:31

tellmewhentheLangshiplandscoz · 06/04/2023 20:07

tellmewhentheLangshiplandscoz
OP what are your goals to aid feminism?

That is a good question. Well in so far as I am subscribed to feminism, which it would seem has different meanings for everyone, I aid feminism by supporting my wife. As in I support her to be able to live to her full potential. I provide materially and give emotional support. I help to raise our child. I also show appreciation for the things she does for me. In short, I aim to be a good husband to my wife. This is feminism for me.

//

Ok so a starting point although I'm sure this arrangement benefits you too.

It does but it is very much a mutually beneficial arrangement. We bring the best of ourselves to the table. Our child does well out of it too. Supporting my wife to be happy and fulfilled is clearly in my own interests, but I believe this doesn't take away from the virtue of it.

OP posts:
ThunderDad · 06/04/2023 20:37

Fairislefandango · 06/04/2023 17:30

That's an interesting question. I certainly think that to a certain extent it is inevitable that biology defines a woman's role in society in various respects.

How does biology define the role in society of a woman who chooses not to have children? Or who cannot have children? Do you think that women should be stay-at-home mothers?

I realise that you started the thread to ask for views, but before women bother to explain their views on feminism to a man who claims to know little about it and yet claims to support it, I think it's reasonable for us to ask some questions to establish whether you are on the level and really interested in listening. The vibes I'm getting so far suggest not, I'm afraid.

I am interested. The thing is I have no more control of this thread than any of you do. I cannot censor it, I don't think I can even delete it. At least one poster here has suggested that the question I posed 'What are the goals' is an interesting one. You are all very welcome to have the discussion among yourselves. There is not real reason for me to be the center of attention here. I am only replying so often because so many posts are being directed to me. Please feel free to discuss the topic among yourselves if it interests you.

OP posts:
ThunderDad · 06/04/2023 20:45

@Fairislefandango Regarding biology above (sorry I forgot to reply to your question). I don't think biology ought to have much of an effect on the life of a woman who doesn't have children. Ideally it should be irrelevant. If it is a woman's choice not to have a child (or if she cannot) then the only things preventing her from doing this or that should be the same as the things preventing any man doing these things.

Do I think women should be stay-at-home mothers? No but you do have to consider what is the optimal raising environment for the child. Particularly from birth - 3 years, the child needs to form a bond with one primary carer and separation from that carer is traumatic for the child. Usually this carer is the mother, and in some ways it makes sense because she can breastfeed the child. There are most likely ways in which a baby is more likely to be reception to the smell, voice etc. of its mother above its father. However it is not inconceivable that the primary carer could be the father and thus there would be a stay-at-home dad. I think the judgement as to what is best is really a practical one and needs to be made in terms of what is an optimal growth environment for the child. Personally I'm very adverse to sending my kids under 3 to any kind of daycare as I think it probably isn't too good for them. Thus one of us needs to be a stay at home parent.

OP posts:
Avarua2 · 06/04/2023 20:57

I don't think biology ought to have much of an effect on the life of a woman who doesn't have children. Ideally it should be irrelevant.

This is laughable and a bit naive, sorry OP.

By the time a woman is 30 even if she doesn't have kids she will have experienced:
potentially painful or humiliating periods
mood swings due to hormones
potential abortion
hormonal contraception
sexual advances from older men, sometimes very old men
hostile sexual approaches, anything ranging from wolf-whistling all the way through to physical 'groping' type approaches
potential rape or sexual abuse
being spoken down to
Dickpics
and nowdays, she will also face the suggestion that she, as a woman, is 'lucky' because she can 'earn heaps' on OnlyFans

Biology is EVERYTHING

Avarua2 · 06/04/2023 20:59

Personally I'm very adverse to sending my kids under 3 to any kind of daycare as I think it probably isn't too good for them. Thus one of us needs to be a stay at home parent.

Two working adults, each 3 or 4 days working each, works well. Best if both Dad and Mum step back from work in the young years, in my opinion.

Avarua2 · 06/04/2023 21:02

...and then when she gets married or older, she'll come to the dawning realisation that all those professional men she thought were actually interested in her opinion or her professional skillset all through her 20s were really only pretending to listen to her in order to try and sleep with her.

By the time you're 45 like me you've learned that the majority of men, even the ones you think are nice, are actually jerks. The ones who protest loudly that they're feminists... usually aren't.

ThunderDad · 06/04/2023 21:07

Avarua2 · 06/04/2023 20:57

I don't think biology ought to have much of an effect on the life of a woman who doesn't have children. Ideally it should be irrelevant.

This is laughable and a bit naive, sorry OP.

By the time a woman is 30 even if she doesn't have kids she will have experienced:
potentially painful or humiliating periods
mood swings due to hormones
potential abortion
hormonal contraception
sexual advances from older men, sometimes very old men
hostile sexual approaches, anything ranging from wolf-whistling all the way through to physical 'groping' type approaches
potential rape or sexual abuse
being spoken down to
Dickpics
and nowdays, she will also face the suggestion that she, as a woman, is 'lucky' because she can 'earn heaps' on OnlyFans

Biology is EVERYTHING

Which is why I used the word 'ought'. I'm talking in terms of the expectations / limitations placed upon women by society, not the physical difficulties caused by biology. I know that even outside of childbirth that women have it harder. But on the other hand women get to live about 10 years longer (and with better health) than men because our testosterone is basically killing us. There are some trade offs. Also women are generally treated with more kindness and consideration. You kind of get told to get lost a lot more as a man. Look how I'm being spoken to on this thread if you don't believe me.

OP posts:
WarriorN · 06/04/2023 21:18

It's not a competition Ffs.

That's your first mistake.

Consider women's liberation rather than feminism.

WarriorN · 06/04/2023 21:20

Read invisible women and you get the first inkling of what feminism means in 2023.

TheShellBeach · 06/04/2023 21:21

Women are generally treated with more kindness and consideration?
Sure. The ones who are not victims of domestic violence and rape.

ThunderDad · 06/04/2023 21:30

TheShellBeach · 06/04/2023 21:21

Women are generally treated with more kindness and consideration?
Sure. The ones who are not victims of domestic violence and rape.

I'm talking about general day to day interaction.

OP posts:
Avarua2 · 06/04/2023 21:32

But on the other hand women get to live about 10 years longer (and with better health) than men because our testosterone is basically killing us.
Sure, if you count eating too much processed food, drinking too much alcohol, choosing sedentary activities like gaming, not prioritising stress-relieving activities like yoga or meditation, and taking risks in physical jobs testosterone 😃

Eann · 06/04/2023 22:02

Buy a book and do your own research. Maybe join a library.