Genuine question: Male & Female segregation

[Fandangoes]

Why were toilets, changing rooms, sports, prisons etc segregated for men and women in the first place. What was the original logic for this happening?

Yeah, there are much more productive ways to help imo. Not that the gender nonsense shouldn't be pushed back against, but helping out a DV charity etc has much more tangible effect than declaring yourself to be Spartacus on an internet forum.

Why are you on a feminist chat when you are clearly not a feminist and say things like this on other boards:

Tbf, a lot of feminists get PTSD from reading stuff online, so I don't think it's 100% a combat. illness.

And no I didn't go post searching for that, I am on that thread too.

Did you get bored of referring to overweight people as 'fatties' and decide to come and pick at some other people for a change?

<shockedface>

You seem a bit obsessed with the whole Spartacus thing, Flo, FWR gender criticism has come on a long way since then.

It is in fact possible to do both.

That was actually a sincere comment, although I can see how it looks like I was taking the piss. 😂

The most recent reference I'd seen to a non-military person having PTSD was a woman who's got it from online trolling, so it was kind of in the back of my mind.

I take an interest in a lot of issues around women's rights but I see a notable difference between this and the sort of person that defines themselves by it. The latter is typically either an overwhelmingly selfless person that puts all their effort into a charity etc, or alternatively a somewhat bitter individual who makes complaining about men/society a prime focus in their day to day life, often not actually seeming to do much beyond complaining. There seem to be much more of the latter from my observations.

Whoops, the mask slipped.

oh wow we've got to 'bitter women' now, someone please tell me there's a bingo card going!

Mask? I'm not the one with the mask. I couldn't give less of a fuck what you think. I'm telling it pretty much as I see it.

couldn't give less of a fuck what you think

Likewise, but do have fun behaving in an obnoxious way on someone else's thread. Not so holy, really, are you?

There's a difference between the type of person who takes an interest in women's rights and between the type that defines themselves by it and sees themself as part of some kind of righteous army (a Spartacus?).

The former try and help women, the latter may do the same but often try and knock down men, which I find hypocritical. Things like campaigning against IMD and trying to get associated events cancelled. The type that were besides themselves which rage when the Reynard Sinaga rape case happened, making men the victims of the most prolific rapist in recent times (maybe ever).

It's not a zero sum game to me.

...the mask hits the floor with a loud clattering noise...

Oh how surprising, let's make it all about men and their woes. The women on FWR don't campaign against men's issues and facilities, that's more an Oppression Olympics thing that liberal/intersectional feminist types do. GC women mostly just think men (of all genders) are irrelevant to feminism.

FWIW, I support initiatives around men's mental health and male health issues like male cancer, heart disease and aneurysms. These initiatives are vulnerable (not quite as much, but ultimately they will fall too) from gender identity ideological overreach in the same way female specific services are.

I'm not making it all about men, and I'm not suggesting that my above comments apply to posters in this thread. I'm explaining why I follow feminist topics but don't really like 'isms'. They often result in toxic, cliquey groups that gang up on any women who don't agree with them.

For me, feminism is mainly about understanding the issues that less fortunate women than myself face and helping where I can. Unlike many others I don't consider myself a third class citizen, hugely oppressed, or believe that we live in a modern dystopia. I feel pretty privileged to live in the UK in 2023 tbh.

The irony of the whole gender thing IMO is that it's the result of an overly progressive society where everybody is too accommodating to say 'women don't have dicks so you're not a women and don't belong in women's toilets'.

It's almost like a parody to me. I feel almost like I'll be cleaning out a colleague's litter tray one day because nobody dares tell them they're not actually a cat.

It's almost like a parody to me. I feel almost like I'll be cleaning out a colleague's litter tray one day because nobody dares tell them they're not actually a cat.

Agree with that, and it's come up on an AIBU thread, I think genuinely.

No way could I ever work in the corporate environments I used to work in nowadays. It's something of an irony that I work mainly with tradesmen and hear a lot of non-pc banter yet find it a million times more preferable to having to state my pronouns.

Something we can definitely agree on.

To answer the original question: Because our ancestors knew what male on female sexual predation was even if we are having a blip in history where we are told to turn a blind eye to it? It’s why most societies separate male from female…

I just assumed it was etiquette/privacy. Going back a few centuries it was seen as racy to display one's ankles, so sharing toilets would've been seen as extremely inappropriate.

Going back a lot further, males and females would've inhabited different spaces for much of their waking hours (e.g. women being with the children) and the women would've likely had their own facilities for logistic reasons.

Try talking to some older women about what life was really like before they had any rights, or contraception.
The first women's toilets were burned to the ground by angry men who didn't want to lose control.
It wasn't just seen as 'racy' to show your ankles; women were ruthlessly policed. Their conduct wasn't just enforced by men but also by other women. There were real consequences for disobedience, there are women who spent their adult lives in a psychiatric institution. Women who left violent husbands could be returned to them by the police.

Feminists have always been outliers, even among women. You're all so quick to denigrate us and set yourselves apart - but you don't see many anti feminist women giving up the rights you enjoy.

somewhat bitter

😄

I just find it so disturbing how many women do not identify as feminists, from the every day UK women to the insane evangelical Christian politician women actively enforcing the idea that women are mentally and physically weaker and basically need to men. It's so batshit.

@FlorenceAndTheVendingMachine I understand what you are saying in that every genuine and good faith movement will draw a proportion of people whose sole appeal to said movement is its status, either of perceived victimhood or political or social leverage. However to dismiss a majority of feminists of even feminists you disagree with as fitting into this category is dismissive and disingenuous. I'm not saying there are not people like this even in the MN FWR community, I believe I have spotted a handful in my time on these boards, some are active posters and some have either name changed or left the forum.

I also think the focus on men vs women is simply a massive waste of energy to engage with, as only people with misogynistic or misandrist agendas IME shift the argument that way. Men who are against feminism are simply misogynists, it's not really deeper than that. Women who would actively stand against men's movements that genuinely rally around men's issues (and are not just a snivelling MRA excuse to attack women yet again) would be misandrist. Most feminists do not hate men, but (surprisingly) defending of advocating directly for men isn't what feminism is about...

^The second paragraph is in response to your comments that you believe some feminists "outraged" over the fact that men were raped? That's just genuinely not how it works in most peoples' heads, at all.

I think part of the problem is that as soon as you state that you don't identify as a feminist people tend to ignore everything else you say, such as the fact that you do support women's rights and probably agree with many feminists on many things - which I've already stated above.

It disappoints me sometimes tbh as I'd expect most feminists to have enough critical thinking skills to not resort to stereotypes without reading the actual arguments - I'm not talking solely about this thread btw.

I'm also not doing the whole 'what about the men' thing or whatever you call it. I just pretty much turn off instantly when people start using phrases like 'the menz' or going on about 'male tears'. I don't see men as the enemy or think I'm locked in some battle of the sexes. I just recognise that they present more of a threat than women and that this must be taken into consideration.

But honestly I much prefer working with men in general. Not in a cool girl way but because I've just found solely female teams to be much more likely to involve drama and bitchiness.

I don't take for granted the rights won for me by previous feminists. However, these aren't the same third wave (I think) feminists banging on about 'the menz' and manspreading. I'm also not convinced that the suffragettes were as instrumental in getting the vote as many feminists claim. It was more the war. I also can't really admire any group that tried to blow up innocent civilians (including women and children) with bombs.

I can't be arsed with a petty bunfight but I follow a lot of women's rights initiatives (no, I'm not going to list them on anyone's demand). I just don't like the toxic element I see in many strands of feminism, and I'm hardly the first woman to have said this. I feel like some people live for the drama.

You think women need safe spaces because they are twee and weird about showing an ankle?

All that male violence completely passed you by? 3 women a week die at a man's hands.

Less than 1% of rapes are ever investigated, but it is due to etiquette that we split toilets by sex?

Sometimes I despair at what liberal feminism has left us with.

I do find it hard to gauge your position because you purport to be a feminist but at the same time there seems to be a running theme of disdain for women and feminism through your posts.

Yes, I would raise my eyebrows at someone who felt the need to actively iterate the fact that they didn't identify as a feminist.

There are toxic people who identify as feminists, but people with a sense of perspective and critical thinking don't take those people as representative examples of a movement or philosophy, and can also separate people from ideas.

I do understand what you're saying, but again, I don't judge all men based on MRA activists, because I'm not a misandrist. I do often see misogynistic men though, use those very niche hateful feminists who make up a small proportion of feminists as a reason to dismiss "feminism" out of hand. The truth is, they don't give a shit about women, and they look for any excuse to justify why we are deserving of their hatred.

I'm just getting weird similar vibes from your posts which is so odd because you have already said you are a feminist and presumably a woman but a lot of what you say seems to be quite dismissive of feminism and women in general.