Genuine question: Male & Female segregation

[Fandangoes]

Why were toilets, changing rooms, sports, prisons etc segregated for men and women in the first place. What was the original logic for this happening?

This has been something that

Oh dear.

That was something that the UN said not so long ago. That feminism was working to protect all minorities.

This is the same UN that appointed Iran to a committee for women’s needs and rights.

Any person with that knowledge would see a statement that redirects women’s efforts as being destructive to the women’s movement and would be suspicious of anything said or done around feminism by that organisation.

This guy gets it, and is fun to watch

@Fandangoes your thread has been derailed.

It also sounds like you have had quite an experience and are new to feminism.

Is there anything else you want to ask while you are here?

I can confirm that this working class, non-university-educated woman who worries about how I’m going to keep the roof over the head of myself and my disabled husband also cares very much about the right to define myself as a woman, to preserve woman’s spaces and to stand up for safeguarding children.

Funny how feminism is the only activism on behalf of a minority expected to put aside the concerns of that minority and include fight for everyone else first. If ever there was an ironic proof that feminism is still needed, it’s that.

Do you shoulder your way into forums discussing race or disability activism and tell them they should also be including white people or the able-bodied?

feminism as a whole isn't something that most UK women are on board with nowadays. Study after study has shown this

That's really worrying 😧

It's always been the case, Dreamwhisper.

So any "trans issues are irrelevant to women" jibe could just as easily be directed at any feminist woman working to improve things for women in any way at all.

Funny how feminism is the only activism on behalf of a minority expected to put aside the concerns of that minority and include fight for everyone else first. If ever there was an ironic proof that feminism is still needed, it’s that

100%. It definitely is ironic. Sure there are gains for society overall when women are pigeon holed into roles and held back because of their sex, but Jesus Christ have you ever heard anything like it pointed toward any other movement?

Feminists are apparently the mummies and carers of the world from what I can gather.

It doesn't even matter what I think. The majority of posters on here don't want to read all this back slapping Spartacus nonsense. That's why mumsnet created a space for it. It's largely a white middle class feminist concern and women who are struggling to feed/house their family, or facing any number of other issues, won't be wasting any energy worrying about meeting a transwoman in the toilet.

I suspect that Flo's real agenda is showing here but it's pretty evident that many posters do want to read about sex vs. gender issues, the erosion of women's rights and threats to children because the S&G board positively hums and threads on AIBU and Chat often take off too - frequently reaching 1000 posts. When there are polls about S&G issues in AIBU those in support of the 'pro woman' position are usually in the realm of 87% upwards.

Feminism chat (the 'S&G free zone') remains sadly quiet.

I'd prefer that both boards hummed, to be honest.

FWIW, Spartacus, I basically use the Naughty Board for all my feminist posts. Because I cannot see any part of feminism that is not related to 'Sex and Gender'.

I see Florence claims feminism now encompasses various other issues, so perhaps that's what they wishes to use this Nice Board for. That's fine. All 'feminist' issues that don't relate to sex/gender.

I think the only problem is that sometimes posters who are not aware of the split come on this board (the Nice Board) thinking it is the actual Feminist Board, when as most regular posters know, the other Board is where most discussion takes place.

Because I cannot see any part of feminism that is not related to 'Sex and Gender'.

I kind of agree but hanker for the days when we could talk about other issues without the current debate getting in the way.

Well, yes. If you have to do a series of explicatory diagrams every time you raise issues pertaining to women/girls (by which I mean born female, biologically female, including those with nonbinary identities and other genders who are yet still affected by issues that pertain to biologically female people, or in some instances taken to mean 'women/girls' who identify with a set of undefined stereotypes based on some also undefined inner feeling or sense, and some other times those born female but also including those males who have obtained a special certificate and sometimes including various different groups according to the local laws, customs and contexts) then it really does hobble a conversation.

Florence seems to be attempting the Lord HawHaw role in this battle.

I wish it was different too, but the gender ideology is so destructive, so invasive, it's inevitable that it will dominate.

Well, yes. If you have to do a series of explicatory diagrams every time you raise issues pertaining to women/girls (by which I mean born female, biologically female, including those with nonbinary identities and other genders who are yet still affected by issues that pertain to biologically female people, or in some instances taken to mean 'women/girls' who identify with a set of undefined stereotypes based on some also undefined inner feeling or sense, and some other times those born female but also including those males who have obtained a special certificate and sometimes including various different groups according to the local laws, customs and contexts) then it really does hobble a conversation.

😆

Also - I just want to be able to explain myself using terms such as 'patriarchy', 'women's rights', 'sexism' and 'misogyny' without someone shouting 'bigot'.

I also want to terms like male violence against women without fear.

Mm. Clever how they've gutted language to render it harder to fight sexism.

Yes. In the old days, mind, they'd shout 'bitch', 'man hater', 'libber', 'lesbian' ...

@YetAnotherSpartacus thank you - yes my original thread has got derailed but I’ve still learned a lot from reading all the responses and it has increased my awareness of the passion on both sides of the arguments. It’s funny I have always considered myself a ‘feminist’ in that I believe girls should be able to do anything they want, I went to an all girls school and I guess was protected from some of the stereotyping as we were encouraged to achieve in all subjects including STEM etc. The difference now is that I feel I need to be more proactive about my feminism, it’s no longer enough to have my own beliefs and bring up my own family respecting equality, I feel the need to stand up and be counted, to find out what is going on and how I can help make this world a better place for women. I am genuinely shocked at my ignorance, how I had been so oblivious to what was going on around me!

Yes. In the old days, mind, they'd shout 'bitch', 'man hater', 'libber', 'lesbian' ...

On another thread, we have a poster mocking us for being "Greenham Common types", feminist consciousness raising, anti war and lesbian rights, what's so terrible about that?

I was so jealous of a couple of girls I knew whose mothers took them to Greenham Common!

OP - well done you for getting involved! It does not have to be in the 'sex vs gender' debate - there are plenty of issues at stake - inc. rape and violence against women.

Responding to the OP's original post, here's a reason why unisex toilets are a bad idea.

www.walesonline.co.uk/news/man-pulled-woman-nightclub-toilet-25912782

I definitely don’t want to restrict my involvement to the sex/gender debate - it’s just been the easiest to fine proactive action to take. Rape and violence against women was where my quest started but it’s much harder to find ways to help / support / take action

I disagree with this. The sex and gender debate is more ideological and legislation based. Apart from signing petitions and adding your voice to dissent and protests, there's not that much to physically do.

Rape and violence toward women is a tangible thing and therefore there are a TON of opportunities to be actively involved in supporting affected women. You could volunteer for Women's Aid local branches, become a member on their website, volunteer at your local domestic abuse centre that does work similar to Women's Aid, Rape Crisis, the Young Women's Trust.

Not all centres take volunteers because of the nature of the job but a lot do, especially to man those initial front line contact routes. There's also campaigning or working in an ideological way against rape and DV similar to how you can help with the sex and gender debate.

Thanks @Dreamwhisper I’ll certainly look into all of those ideas