Genuine question: Male & Female segregation

[Fandangoes]

Why were toilets, changing rooms, sports, prisons etc segregated for men and women in the first place. What was the original logic for this happening?

You think women need safe spaces because they are twee and weird about showing an ankle?

Whyever would you think that? It's more about men policing female 'decency'. If a man thought it was 'indecent' for a woman to show her ankles he's probably going to have a heart attack if he's in the same room as her dealing with a heavy period or taking a loud number two.

I may not be right but that's what I was contemplating. Nothing to do with women being 'weird about showing an ankle'. Also, it's highly unlikely that toilet arrangements would have been dictated by women back then. Men called the majority of the shots.

BTW I didn't mean this post to come across as combatively/aggressively as it might read. I was just waiting for a car part and trying to get my points across quickly.

What specifically makes you think I'm dismissive of women? I don't feel like I am. My entry to the thread probably didn't help but I'm not the only person sick of trans threads.

It's not even about whether I agree (I've already said twice I lean towards being GC). I guess I just don't like having ideas pushed down my throat or being told how to think which is what it sometimes feels like on here.

Statistically speaking, women like me are the majority. Last study I read found that only 7% of UK women identify as feminists but 75% believe in equality. It was a study by a feminist society so unlikely to be biased. I've also read that more recent studies have found the number to be closer to 20% with young women, but then these are possibly more woke/liberal types.

To clarify, it's not the definition I have an issue with. It's the actual actions I see of many self described feminists that put me off from wanting to associate with them.

Florence you've repeatedly referred to pretty tired tropes about women. You've suggested feminists are bitchy, bitter, drama seekers, amongst other things.

I daresay you don't consider it an issue - sexism is so pervasive that many people don't even notice it. But it's pretty clearly running through most of your posts.

Being a bit disenfranchised with modern feminism isn't the same as being dismissive of women. I don't generally like negative people and I find feminism tends to attract a lot of them.

Some no doubt have genuine reasons and may have found feminism after experiencing bad treatment by men, for example, but I feel like there are also plenty who just use it as a tool to cancel/police/berate others. Maybe they're not real feminists but as with men it can sometimes be difficult to tell who the good ones are.

And I hate all this dialogue of "oh, they hate us so much. We're second class citizens living in a modern dystopia." I just don't see this reflecting the real world, even if there are sexist men and specific obstacles and inequalities that we face as women.

What happened to the strong, fierce women and why have they been replaced by these whiny types that moan about things like men sitting with their legs too far apart on the bus?

I don't generally like negative people and I find feminism tends to attract a lot of them

I find it quite sad that you would categorise being "negative" as an attribute that "a lot" of feminists share.

What your saying genuinely sounds like a dog whistle to typical misogynistic language. White women in developed countries like the UK are so often told by MRA types "you're not even oppressed". I think that perhaps if you educated yourself more on what techniques are used (and take note of the sheer number of them) in which women are made to feel like they're being, melodramatic, hyperbolic, hysterical etc, over their own lived experience, it's just a bit much.

As a youngish woman (late 20's) I can tell you discontent is not relegated solely to older feminists and "third wave" (I fucking hate that term now because I literally only ever here it used as an insult toward younger feminists by both misogynists and feminists alike) have experiences, values and ideas that draw them to feminism. Do you think those experiences that make women take up feminist advocacy and activism are likely to be positive? Or do you think it's mostly going to be experiences of female inequality, first hand or otherwise, which might drive that?

Thinking about it, the fact that you're even saying what you're saying about negativity etc is indicative of how people like you see feminism and it's so frustrating! Is any other equality based movement expected to be happy and fun loving in pursuit of their deserved rights and dignity?

It's not a fun walk in the park ffs. It's actually incredibly patronising and ironic that women are expected to constantly monitor their behaviour in order to not appear "negative" of "bitter" even in the literal pursuit of serious issues about lack of equality inclusive of issues like sexual violence and harassment, bodily autonomy etc..

Similarly, if somebody on here disagrees with feminism we usually see the same statements being trotted out.

• They must be a man
• They're a misogynist/MRA
• They need to 'educate' themselves
• They're a feminist but just don't realise it (silly little woman who doesn't know her own mind)

I don't really want to go down the tit for tat route as it never achieves anything and because it's unlikely either of us will change our minds.

I've read loads of feminist stuff on here over the years and I'm pretty familiar with all the gender stuff, radical feminism, and the other main branches of the movement. I'm sorry but I just find a lot of feminists to be a bit negative or attracted to victim mentalities, the latter being a more recent development. I don't think these really help advance things for us if I'm honest.

It just seems to get closer and closer to the woke movement as time goes on which I don't really like. Admittedly more the Liberal side but that's the majority of feminists nowadays. We may not agree with them but that doesn't make them disappear.

Well given you've spent half the thread moaning about them advocating for safeguarding, safe spaces for women etc I'm not sure why you think they moan about men spreading their legs, or indeed what they are allowed to talk about anymore according to you, as you are moaning about what they do talk about and moaning they talk about things they haven't even mentioned.

It almost sounds like you are policing womens conversations

Most feminists are liberal?

Feminism has always been a progressive movement? Feminism and conservatism are at direct odds ideologically so I'm not sure what this means. As in, I'm not sure who the "other" feminists are in your mind.

Similarly, if somebody on here disagrees with feminism we usually see the same statements being trotted out

If you "disagree with feminism" then you must feel that way for a reason - either you're actively against feminism which I feel would make it fair to label you a misogynist, or you are unaware or misguided about what feminism means.

Agreeing with specific issues and points is completely natural and fair; no group is a homogenous blob with no dissent, debate or discourse. I've had extremely heated debates on these very boards as my views don't quite align with the majority (have name changed but I'm probably pretty recognisable by the length of my posts haha). The reason people are picking up your posts is that you appear to have a pretty negative view of feminism as a whole, making people think you do indeed "disagree with feminism".

I really don't like class analysis. That's perhaps one of my big things.

It no doubt has its place as an analytic tool, but I too often see it being used to make lazy generalisations. When challenged the response is usually 'we're talking about [insert demographic] as a class, not specific individuals.'

And I find the whole privilege thing to be a bit tiresome too tbh. Again, it's a useful concept but it seems to be rewriting history as it goes. Like how a lot of people now believe that it's impossible to be racist to white people or sexist towards men because privilege something or other. I just don't agree.

It just feels like a race to the bottom sometimes. I've seen the usual posters who talk about women as a marginalised group getting mightily offended when a WOC mentions 'white feminism'. And then I've seen WOC in turn getting offended when ethnic groups talk about the racism they've experienced from their own demographic (like in the current thread where a mixed race woman is talking about the racism she's received from black women and being straight up told she's lying).

It just seems to be increasingly internal facing and less about women as a group (whilst I do understand that distinctions do sometimes need to be made). It sometimes feels like a competition of who is the most oppressed and therefore the most eligible to police everybody else.

I just try and ignore the women telling me I won't succeed in xyz because I'm a women, and so far it's worked out. I work in an extremely male dominated industry and firmly believe that most of the women waxing lyrical about the challenges of working in traditionally male sectors mostly don't speak from experience. So many times I've had a female office worker telling me about the plant/engineering/construction sector and it's always interesting to listen without telling them I work in that sector.

If you "disagree with feminism" then you must feel that way for a reason - either you're actively against feminism which I feel would make it fair to label you a misogynist, or you are unaware or misguided about what feminism means.

No offence but it's pretty annoying when you keep ignoring my detailed explanations of how I feel and make generic posts like 'you must feel that way for a reason'. Yes I do, and I've explained it pretty clearly.

I don't like the type of steering (for want of a better word) where you set up only two eventualities which are that I'm either a misogynist or just don't understand feminism. Another option is that I understand it perfectly well and don't agree.

However, as I specifically ensured to point out earlier in the thread, it's not the definition of feminism or the concept that puts me off. It's the actual people and the way they act. An MRA would say that anybody who fights against male rights would have to be a bigot, but we all know that MRAs are not what they claim to be on the tin. It's a bit like that.

You must know what I mean. I'm sure that somebody mentioned libfems above. I'm talking about the type that support sex work and dislike 'terfs' etc. Massive generalisations but you hopefully catch my drift.

I do understand your take, I have a similar one on certain topics, mainly the trans one. But what I'm careful not to do is to go around talking in these general terms about bitterness and negativity, associate them lazily/generally with feminism, and them proclaim that's why you'd never label yourself a feminist. I think it's such a stereotypical thing that is done toward women and feminists that to do so seems such an insult to not just the individuals you're actually addressing but to feminism itself.

It seems backwards, damaging to the cause and yes in my opinion, a little misogynistic. That doesn't mean I think you're a misogynist, lots of women hold misogynistic views for many many different reasons.

And sorry I did forget to address the point where you said I was annoying you because I was ignoring your detailed explanation - It just did strike me as a little off and misogynistic, it doesn't mean I'm right of course, I just want to point out I wasn't ignoring you, I just (as you said) simply disagree with what you're saying and find the underlying tone, perhaps misogynistic isn't even the right term, almost sexist?

Though analysing myself, I do describe MRA/incel types as bitter, though I feel that is a genuinely accurate analysis of their feelings and they would say as much.

You know I actually agree with many of the things you're saying to an extent, Florence, when you talk to people like they're human beings you make some fair points! There are an awful lot of instances in which your points are expanded upon in contemporary feminist circles - 'grievance studies' being one that springs to mind that has been much discussed.

There are definitely some issues within I think any movement that seeks change - one can become focussed on the issue itself and the problem rather than looking to possible solutions. And any group benefits from listening to criticism.

Sorry if it sounded like I was jumping down your throat, Candlelight, and I appreciate you answering sincerely. It wasn't my intention to come onto the feminist forum and criticise feminism - I can see how that would be seen as goady.

In all likelihood, the sort of people I'm talking about probably aren't the type of posters in this thread.

I can be a bit combative at times with a small streak of misanthropy, but perhaps that's just how I deal with the world we live in. However, I think there's a fine line between identifying and discussing issues (which is necessary to work out how to deal with them) and alternatively always focusing on the negatives.

I sometimes wonder if we'd be better if we weren't told all our lives that men have more privilege, will earn more, will command more authority/be taken more seriously, have better job prospects etc. However, managing expectations is also sensible. I just sometimes reflect on whether the disadvantages women face are actually more of an obstacle than the morale many lose through internalising all these disadvantages and almost expecting to struggle before even trying.

The answer likely depends on many things, including the privilege you were born with (upbringing, education, familial wealth/connections, etc).

What would happen if a girl grew up believing that she was equal to men? Would she be cruelly rebuffed or would she face struggles but actually be better placed to succeed, even if perhaps not as easily as many men would in her shoes?

Sorry if it sounded like I was jumping down your throat, Candlelight, and I appreciate you answering sincerely. It wasn't my intention to come onto the feminist forum and criticise feminism - I can see how that would be seen as goady.

In all likelihood, the sort of people I'm talking about probably aren't the type of posters in this thread.

I can be a bit combative at times with a small streak of misanthropy, but perhaps that's just how I deal with the world we live in. I think there's a fine line between identifying and discussing issues (which is necessary to work out how to deal with them) and alternatively always focusing on the negatives.

I sometimes wonder if we'd be better if we weren't told all our lives that men have more privilege, will earn more, will command more authority/be taken more seriously, have better job prospects etc. However, managing expectations is also sensible. I just sometimes reflect on whether the disadvantages women face are actually more of an obstacle than the morale many lose through internalising all these disadvantages and almost expecting to struggle before even trying.

The answer likely depends on many things, including the privilege you were born with (upbringing, education, familial wealth/connections).

What would happen if a girl grew up believing that she was equal to men? Would she be cruelly rebuffed or would she face struggles but actually succeed, even if perhaps not as easily as many men would in her shoes?

Sorry if it sounded like I was jumping down your throat, Candlelight, and I appreciate you answering sincerely. It wasn't my intention to come onto the feminist forum and criticise feminism - I can see how that would be seen as goady.

In all likelihood, the sort of people I'm talking about probably aren't the type of posters in this thread.

I can be a bit combative at times with a small streak of misanthropy, but perhaps that's just how I deal with the world we live in. However, I think there's a fine line between identifying and discussing issues (which is necessary to work out how to deal with them) and alternatively always focusing on the negatives.

I sometimes wonder if we'd be better if we weren't told all our lives that men have more privilege, will earn more, will command more authority/be taken more seriously, have better job prospects etc. However, managing expectations is also sensible. I just sometimes reflect on whether the disadvantages women face are actually more of an obstacle than the morale many lose through internalising all these disadvantages and almost expecting to struggle before even trying.

The answer likely depends on many things, including the privilege you were born with (upbringing, education, familial wealth/connections, etc).

What would happen if a girl grew up believing that she was equal to men? Would she be cruelly rebuffed or would she face struggles but actually be better placed to succeed, even if perhaps not as easily as many men would in her shoes?

Sorry if it sounded like I was jumping down your throat, Candlelight, and I appreciate you answering sincerely. It wasn't my intention to come onto the feminist forum and criticise feminism - I can see how that would be seen as goady.

In all likelihood, the sort of people I'm talking about probably aren't the type of posters in this thread.

I can be a bit combative at times with a small streak of misanthropy, but perhaps that's just how I deal with the world we live in. However, I think there's a fine line between identifying and discussing issues (which is necessary to work out how to deal with them) and alternatively always focusing on the negatives.

I sometimes wonder if we'd be better if we weren't told all our lives that men have more privilege, will earn more, will command more authority/be taken more seriously, have better job prospects etc. However, managing expectations is also sensible. I just sometimes reflect on whether the disadvantages women face are actually more of an obstacle than the morale many lose through internalising all these disadvantages and almost expecting to struggle before even trying.

The answer likely depends on many things, including the privilege you were born with (upbringing, education, familial wealth/connections, etc).

What would happen if a girl grew up believing that she was equal to men? Would she be cruelly rebuffed or would she face struggles but actually be better placed to succeed, even if perhaps not as easily as many men would in her shoes?

What the hell happened there! Page was hanging so kept trying to post.

That's completely understandable and funnily me and my DP were having a similar discussions about expectations and perceptions of expectations, and how that effects not just measurable things but just the general sentiment of people.

And as said, I genuinely think you're right that some people fetishize victimhood and that happens in literally every demographic of people where perceived victimhood could apply. I think it was probably as you said more the context of the thread this came out on than what you're actually saying.

My geography teacher was a great guy and it always stuck with me when he told us an anecdote that a study was done on children where one group was told they were doing really really well at something and the other was consistently told they were inadequate, even though they were performing initially at the same level. As you can imagine, the group who was praised ended up improving and doing much better than the other group.

And I believe a similar answer has been provided in some context (sorry to be so vague, just thinking off the top of my head but sure it exists somewhere) about women and maths, whereby so many have grown up being told women are naturally not good at maths that they perform badly when called upon due to the anxiety caused around feeling inferior right off the bat.

So I totally agree that society should be working towards making women and girls feel like they could do anything. This to me is what feminism is; true equality, that benefits everyone because every role a woman is pigeon-holed into is one a man is pigeon-holed out of.

And I feel like I always need to add the caveat creating an equal society doesn't mean pretending that differences between the sexes don't exist. It's about acknowledging the batshit antiquated notions our societies cling on to about all the things men and women can't do because it's not a "man's job" or "woman's job".

Fair points and I think it further emphasises the broad spectrum that feminism spans. I think it's entirely possible that feminism can both encourage women and demoralise them depending on exactly what strand we're talking about and who is the protagonist.

When I talk about it demoralising some women, I guess I'm not talking so much about the theory so much as how some people interpret it. So, for instance, one woman may use it to identify issues that need to be challenged to help women move forward. Another might use it almost as a vehicle to claim victimhood and lecture others on their privilege.

The latter is closer to what I see in woke circles with all the cancelling etc and which I fervently dislike, but it's not so much what I see on here.