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Feminism: chat

Genuine question: Male & Female segregation

299 replies

Fandangoes · 15/12/2022 14:21

Why were toilets, changing rooms, sports, prisons etc segregated for men and women in the first place. What was the original logic for this happening?

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BenCoopersSupportWren · 10/01/2023 07:42

What would happen if a girl grew up believing that she was equal to men? Would she be cruelly rebuffed or would she face struggles but actually be better placed to succeed, even if perhaps not as easily as many men would in her shoes?

I was that girl. I genuinely spent my teens and early 20s thinking feminism (once I became aware of the concept) had “won” and there was nothing I couldn’t do if I wanted to. I absorbed the messages of equality wholesale.

It didn’t stop me getting paid less than my male colleagues in a role where I had more subject knowledge than any of them.

It didn’t stop me being sexually assaulted by a male doctor.

It didn’t stop me being accused of being “too strident” in meetings (and therefore more easily ignored), when none of my male colleagues making forceful points were pulled up on their tone - this was not in the same job as the one mentioned above, btw.

It didn’t prevent it taking 15 YEARS to get a diagnosis of a congenital health condition because my concerns and symptoms were repeatedly dismissed and downplayed (I later discovered this is not an uncommon female experience.)

That’s not me “fetishising my victimhood” or whatever you called it upthread. That is simply my life experience, and I’ve come to terms with it in many ways. But believing wholeheartedly at the outset that I was equal to any man didn’t prevent me encountering misogyny, sexism and lesser treatment for no reason other than being a woman in a society set up by, and to benefit primarily, men.

So yes, I was pretty angry by the time I turned to feminist activism. As a PP said, why the fuck are women expected to be smiley and pleasant and upbeat while fighting to address inequalities against their sex? Denying us the right to be angry or yes, even “bitter”, is just more misogynistic tone policing.

ArabellaScott · 10/01/2023 13:35

What would happen if a girl grew up believing that she was equal to men? Would she be cruelly rebuffed or would she face struggles but actually be better placed to succeed, even if perhaps not as easily as many men would in her shoes?

Lots of different areas of life impact women because of their sex, though.

What does 'success' look like when it comes to domestic violence? And 'Equality' doesn't really mean much in the face of dealing with rape. I say this not out of bitterness, but pragmatism. No amount of confidence or self belief really makes a smidge of difference in those areas. So yes, belief in equality got me quite far in terms of education and work, but fucking nowhere in terms of safety and to an extent, well being.

I was raised in a feminist household, in a mature democracy, with excellent opportunities for women, and robust equality laws, and I have reasonably firm self belief. That's not the largest part of what I need feminism for, tbh.

What I want from feminism is for society to grasp the problem of male violence. This is actually a more positive mindset overall, I'd say, because it is identifying a very specific and real phenomenon, that is potentially solvable. It's not railing at 'micro aggressions' or some miasma of the patriarchy or a vaguely uneven world. It's saying a certain proportion of men are violent and abusive, and that needs to change.

ConfusedNT · 10/01/2023 14:13

What would happen if a girl grew up believing that she was equal to men?

I was brought up like this. But cat calling from middle aged men started at 12, flashers at 14 and groping at 15.

It doesn't matter that I was brought up to think I could do everything men could and that I was equal in society. From 12 I started to learn that I could do everything men could but I had to deal with sexual harassment on top of it.

you may say I am claiming victim status etc. I am just telling you my reality.

FlorenceAndTheVendingMachine · 10/01/2023 18:08

I don't know. I just have a different outlook on life I guess. I recognise risk but I'm not scared of men or worried about the patriarchy etc. Men may have some privileges over me but so do many individual women.

The examples on this thread aren't what I really meant by the victim thing. If you've been sexually assaulted etc you are a genuine victim. I'm taking about the types who use things like feminism and woke theory as a tool to claim the higher moral ground. Those who don't really do much to help other women and mainly look for people to cancel etc.

CandlelightGlow · 10/01/2023 19:19

That's not what feminism is about though and not what most people think like and act upon.

I would like to point out that my phrasing of "fetishising victimhood" is my take on what Florence is talking about but again, as I've directly argued on this thread, is not something I think 99% of feminists ever think like or do. An example I can point to though is the TradWife trend. It's basically a bunch of privileged conservative wealthy women acting like the pinnacle of female success and societal ideal for a woman is to be a subservient housewife. I would consider that the fetishization of the female experience.

I do not get on with the type feminist ideas that minimise the minimise the impact and scope that sexual violence and harassment has on women. I don't even agree that we've

I'm a woman's woman, but have at all points of my life had loads of male friends. I have a partner I love and respect who shares my values including the feminist ones. I have sons. I don't hate men at all and plenty have been so nice to me, but my life is still blighted by the many negative experiences perpetuated against me by men. Always due to sexual attraction and misogyny. What is going to work to change this attitude, to see women as people of equal value with equal rights to dignity, and not objects or inferiors?

Can we truly say we live in an equal society if women are constantly targeted by men due to their physical appeal to men? I find men physically appealing, as do most women, how many women harass and assault men though? Do we genuinely have to just accept this as an inevitability?

AlisonDonut · 10/01/2023 19:38

I just have a different outlook on life I guess. I recognise risk but I'm not scared of men or worried about the patriarchy etc

What, not scared of any man? What about when you are walking home at 2am and one a foot taller and broader than you is following you? Not scared? Give over. Total bullshit.

AlisonDonut · 10/01/2023 19:39

Can we truly say we live in an equal society

A truly equal society would be women killing 2-3 men a week. Is that what we want?

CandlelightGlow · 10/01/2023 19:51

AlisonDonut · 10/01/2023 19:39

Can we truly say we live in an equal society

A truly equal society would be women killing 2-3 men a week. Is that what we want?

I obviously mean in a society where women are considered in equal value to men. That would stop female murders, not increase male murders.

CandlelightGlow · 10/01/2023 19:53

^You also cut off half of my quote in order to change the meaning of what I said there.

FlorenceAndTheVendingMachine · 10/01/2023 20:26

AlisonDonut · 10/01/2023 19:38

I just have a different outlook on life I guess. I recognise risk but I'm not scared of men or worried about the patriarchy etc

What, not scared of any man? What about when you are walking home at 2am and one a foot taller and broader than you is following you? Not scared? Give over. Total bullshit.

Calm down love, I'm talking about in general. I'd imagine anybody, including a bloke, would be uneasy in that situation.

No doubt men are more violent, as are the vast majority of mammals. There's plenty of evidence to suggest hormones play a big part in that but tbh I'm not interested in going down that rabbit hole right now (or hearing more about bloody Cordelia Fine).

I don't think women are more benevolent than men despite being less violent. In fact, I think they're often crueller as a sex which may or may not be related to the fact they're less likely to resolve things through direct confrontation or violence.

ConfusedNT · 10/01/2023 20:34

Calm down love 🙄

FlorenceAndTheVendingMachine · 10/01/2023 20:36

Yes it was meant to be condescending. Or am I supposed to fall over in being polite to someone whose first comment to me is to call my post 'total bullshit'?

ConfusedNT · 10/01/2023 20:38

FlorenceAndTheVendingMachine · 10/01/2023 20:36

Yes it was meant to be condescending. Or am I supposed to fall over in being polite to someone whose first comment to me is to call my post 'total bullshit'?

If you choose to come on here and use a typically misogynistic insult that's been used against women for years then that's up to you. And my response is up to me.

FlorenceAndTheVendingMachine · 10/01/2023 20:49

Fine. Tone police away to your heart's content then.

ConfusedNT · 10/01/2023 20:56

FlorenceAndTheVendingMachine · 10/01/2023 20:49

Fine. Tone police away to your heart's content then.

I mean half your posts on this thread have been complaining about people talking about trans people on a board where you think they shouldn't, and so you decided to have a go and try to shut the conversation down.

Then you go on to tell posters how they should or shouldn't be feminists. What we should or shouldnt be talking about, what we should or shouldnt be campaigning about.Complaining about us whining, calling us bitter.

But sure me calling a comment misogynistic is the one policing conversation 🙄

FlorenceAndTheVendingMachine · 10/01/2023 20:58

Then you go on to tell posters how they should or shouldn't be feminists.

Really? Can you link an example?

ConfusedNT · 10/01/2023 21:08

FlorenceAndTheVendingMachine · 10/01/2023 20:58

Then you go on to tell posters how they should or shouldn't be feminists.

Really? Can you link an example?

Yeah, there are much more productive ways to help imo. Not that the gender nonsense shouldn't be pushed back against, but helping out a DV charity etc has much more tangible effect than declaring yourself to be Spartacus on an internet forum.

I can't be bothered to scroll back more because I am on my phone and my software to help my visual impairment has decided to take a night off so there's a lot of squinting going on.

AlisonDonut · 10/01/2023 21:20

Pretending that you don't see men's violence as an issue is a stance that got us here in the first place. It is insulting to women who have been affected and hurt and killed, and makes you no friend of women and girls who will be targeted when well meaning kool girls remove safeguards because they don't get it.

You basically gave Jimmy Saville the keys to the hospital because he got you a backstage pass. Good for you.

FlorenceAndTheVendingMachine · 10/01/2023 21:20

ConfusedNT · 10/01/2023 21:08

Yeah, there are much more productive ways to help imo. Not that the gender nonsense shouldn't be pushed back against, but helping out a DV charity etc has much more tangible effect than declaring yourself to be Spartacus on an internet forum.

I can't be bothered to scroll back more because I am on my phone and my software to help my visual impairment has decided to take a night off so there's a lot of squinting going on.

In that post I state that volunteering for charities is, in my opinion, more productive than posturing on internet forums. I'm surprised you'd disagree but more importantly nothing in that post is telling people they can't be a Spartacus if they really want. I'm just stating my opinion.

Nice attempt to shut down discussion you don't approve of though. Misogynists would be proud.

ConfusedNT · 10/01/2023 21:25

FlorenceAndTheVendingMachine · 10/01/2023 21:20

In that post I state that volunteering for charities is, in my opinion, more productive than posturing on internet forums. I'm surprised you'd disagree but more importantly nothing in that post is telling people they can't be a Spartacus if they really want. I'm just stating my opinion.

Nice attempt to shut down discussion you don't approve of though. Misogynists would be proud.

You've literally spent post after post trying to shut down the conversation trans people.

I did one eye roll and pointed out a comment was misogynistic and suddenly I'm the one attempting to shut the discussion down. Seriously.

I'm going to stop commenting now, you are clearly not operating in good faith.

FlorenceAndTheVendingMachine · 10/01/2023 21:37

ConfusedNT · 10/01/2023 21:25

You've literally spent post after post trying to shut down the conversation trans people.

I did one eye roll and pointed out a comment was misogynistic and suddenly I'm the one attempting to shut the discussion down. Seriously.

I'm going to stop commenting now, you are clearly not operating in good faith.

Great.

But for the record I don't have an issue with trans or any other discussion. Like many other posters I'm sick of having it pushed down my throat at every opportunity, especially when in the forum which was meant to be freed up by the creation of a specific gender area.

But we're unnecessarily rehashing what's already been discussed and moved on from.

FlorenceAndTheVendingMachine · 10/01/2023 21:42

But you are somewhat confirming my suspicion that a lot of feminists don't like strong women that stand up for themselves if they're not devoutly feminist. It contradicts the agenda and makes them feel a bit redundant is what I'm guessing.

ShrillBill · 10/01/2023 22:52

You've been challenged for making anti feminist, inaccurate statements on a feminist board; if you choose to reframe that as a personal attack that's on you.

BenCoopersSupportWren · 10/01/2023 23:19

Cracking bit of DARVO, Grommit.

pattihews · 10/01/2023 23:30

You're not coming across as strong, Flo. You're coming across as a standard goady boor, sly and evasive and gamey. This is a feminism board. 99% of the women here will be feminists yet you show no respect. If you really want to have a kvetch about feminists open a thread on Chat and you'll find lots of people who agree with you. We know what we think. We've been through this a thousand times with better wind-up merchants than you. Be gone.