Genuine question: Male & Female segregation

[Fandangoes]

Why were toilets, changing rooms, sports, prisons etc segregated for men and women in the first place. What was the original logic for this happening?

Interesting question!

There is a lot 'out there' on this. Look up things like Urinary Leash

But basically it stems from times when men went out to work and socialise and women stayed at home, socialised in the home, theirs or someone else. Think about all those period dramas, pre WWI.

At the Great Exhibition the first flushing toilets were showcased, that started a change - initially for men only.

Try this...

www.historic-uk.com/CultureUK/History-of-Womens-Public-Toilets-in-Britain/#:~:text=The%20story%20in%20Britain%20starts,as%20'Public%20Waiting%20Rooms'.

I'm not just thinking about toilets though. Why are men and women housed in separate prisons? What is the reason for this?

?????????

What are you looking for? The answer to that is blindingly obvious.

Is it?! I'm trying to understand what the logic is behind providing single sex facilities so I can consider if any of those reasons would include or exclude transpeople

You're asking why men and women are put in separate prisons? Have you not heard of male violence against women and girls? It's endemic.

OK. Let's unpack that a bit. It would help to know if you are male, female, trans, NB etc.

Because at the moment all I have its "You have got to be fucking kidding me!"

To prevent violence and sexual assault towards women and girls from men and boys.

Yep- same!

Its obvious isnt it considering that most (if not almost all) violent crimes and sexual attacks on women are perpetrated by men.

• sexual assault
• % transwomen who retain male genitalia
• % transwomen sentenced for sexual assault of women, and kids.
• % of men who begin transition after sentencing - for any crime
• Transmen are not housed in male prisons because it is deemed to be "too dangerous" for them
• The existence of a dedicated Trans Prison Wing (in a female prison with a mother and baby unit)

But mostly men are not women. Even if you choose to disregard all of the above, women deserve privacy and dignity away from the male gaze. Just as men deserve male only spaces.

As mentioned below, men and women are different physically and biologically and deserve privacy. Women also deserve a space where they don't have to be sexualised or feel threatened.

For prisoners it has been accepted since the the work of Elizabeth Fry in the C19 that segregation is safer for women. Wiki says
Elizabeth Fry (née Gurney; 21 May 1780 – 12 October 1845), sometimes referred to as Betsy Fry[citation needed], was an English prison reformer, social reformer, philanthropist and Quaker. Fry was a major driving force behind new legislation to improve the treatment of prisoners, especially female inmates, and as such has been called the "Angel of Prisons". She was instrumental in the 1823 Gaols Act which mandated sex-segregation of prisons and female warders for female inmates to protect them from sexual exploitation.[1] Fry kept extensive diaries in which the need to protect female prisoners from rape and sexual exploitation is explicit.[2][3]

sorry I am female and definitely pro JK Rowling and all things feminism I am however fairly new to being aware of all the political stuff going on (I am based in Scotland). I am horrified to think that the gender reform bill is likely to be passed next week and have started to be more vocal about my views amongst friends. Many of them are of the 'be kind' viewpoint and are arguing against me and actually falling out with me over it. I'm trying to find new ways to explain my viewpoint.
I have. of course, heard of male violence against women, but if I use this example then I am told that TWAW and also need to be protected against male violence. I guess I was hoping to find some 'evidence' that suggested it was because of some factor that could irrefutably still apply to transwomen so that I could explain my point without being accused of being transphobic.

It might help you to do some reading around Elizabeth Fry. She was one of the people responsible for sex segregation of prisoners and kept diaries which documented the rape and sexual exploitation of female prisoners that made this necessary.

Even ignoring that (and why would we want to ignore that) there's the inherent misogyny that comes from mixing men and women.

I think it's Peterborough prisons which is rhe first new dual sex prison. All of the areas are sex segregated, except for the kitchen. There's only one kitchen so naturally it's staffed by female prisoners. Not because of misogyny they say, but because women are safer and less likely to adultrate the food.

Now given its normal for male prisoners to work in the kitchens in male prisons they must already have risk assessments to overcome this. But add some women in and its suddenly easier to just throw the domestic load on them rather than do their jobs properly. Can't even go to prisons to escape the fucking wife work.

But mostly its the rape. And sexual assault. And the sheer stupidity of shutting men up with sentences for violence against women with women. And shutting men and stopping them from having access to women for sex, then giving them access to women and expecting them to respect their boundaries. Some will of course. But prison is inherently made up of a large proportion of individuals who have issues respecting boundaries.

Because women need to be protected from men. I know not all men, I know some women are equally dangerous, but overwhelmingly aggressors against women are men. And when I say men I mean adult males, and I dont care how they are dressed or what they choose to call themselves.

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4697715-respectful-disagreement?page=2&reply=122290828
OP wrt to TW and their vulnerability, you might want to look at this thread, the OP there has actually worked in a male prison with TW, see what she says about their vulnerability

We know that:

Men as a sex class are a dire threat to women and girls and boys.

We cannot tell by looking which man will kill us or rape us.

Therefore the safest and easiest way to protect the women, girl and boys using a space is to exclude all men from that space. All of them.

IDK why this is confusing?

*The court heard that in 2019 there were 163 transgender prisoners in England and Wales, 81 of whom had been convicted of one or more sexual offences. Of the 163, 34 were held in women’s prisons.

Between 2016 and 2019, a total of 97 sexual assaults were recorded in women’s prisons, of which seven appeared to be committed by transgender prisoners without a GRC. It is not known whether any were committed by transgender women with a GRC but the number of transgender prisoners with a GRC across all jails is thought to be in single figures*

The above comes from the Guardian

Look up Elizabeth Fry. She got an act of parliament in 1823, to separate female prisoners to stop sexual exploitation. She was he witness to what was happening
Believe me , we should not be going back 200 years in name of “ progress”. The same shit will happen

Ah! That makes a lot more sense! And I suspect we have all been on the receiving end of that disingenuous kind of response.

I too would suggest that thread, there is a lot there that makes sense and could be used to rebut the whataboutery.

Basically we don't shelter any foxes in hen houses or the tale of the scorpion acting according to its nature, etc.

Or if you get sick and tired of trying to be polite: Sod off! Men are men. Women are not collateral damage!

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4697715-respectful-disagreement?page=2&reply=122290828

thank you, I'll read through the threads suggested and try to pick up some good responses as sometimes I find myself shut down and I don't know how to answer!

Well with respect to toilets the first public conveniences in London were not technically male only. They were paid for by taxes raised on men and women. But if a woman used them she was assumed by all and sundry to be a prostitute to the point where a policeman testifying that a woman "was found inside the public conveniences" was enough evidence to secure a conviction for solicitation. As the suffragettes marched they did need to pee. The only way to do that was to take over the loos en masse, and a number of women armed with cudgels would guard the doors so that women could pee, with long queues forming. This did actually inconvenience men to the point where some men started to 'get' the point of having ladies loos.

www.museumoflondon.org.uk/discover/womens-right-work-toilet-bathroom-victorian-london-wwi-factory-protest

www.historic-uk.com/CultureUK/History-of-Womens-Public-Toilets-in-Britain/

Op look for the thread entitled "break it down for me" located on the sex and gender board.

Read Helen Joyce's book trans or watch kne of the many interviews on YouTube.

Rather than trying to convince your friends of obvious facts that everyone knew until 5 minutes ago, ask them to explain their position. You cannot reason someone out of a position they haven't reasoned their self into but you can help them interrogate their views. Ime when Be Kind people have to actually think about what their saying and reason it out, the penny starts to drop.