Genuine question: Male & Female segregation

[Fandangoes]

Why were toilets, changing rooms, sports, prisons etc segregated for men and women in the first place. What was the original logic for this happening?

I remember a few posters commenting that they were a little disappointed on how little discussion there was around the abortion issue, especially considering that it had the potential to affect so many women and was at a critical stage where women's voices could potentially make all the difference. Amongst the responses were women saying that they no longer visited this forum as it was 99% trans threads nowadays, and others saying that they'd not noticed the abortion threads amongst all the gender topics.

I agree that reproductive rights are crucial and they always have been my no. 1 issue but there are other spaces on MN where these discussions could have happened and they did not.

Also, FWR attracts new posters at a rate of knots. I suspect that it is one of three or four 'top' boards on MN and despite MN never, ever spruiking it on social media and indeed trying to stifle it.

I guess it just frustrated me because the abortion situation affects a lot of women in very real ways. The trans situation is also important but IMO it's more an ideological battle as in reality you're extremely unlikely to bump into a transwomen in the toilet, which is why the issue isn't even on most women's radar.

You've really missed the point here. This isn't about transwomen in toilets.

Also, the issue is increasingly on women's agendas as it involves children, young people, forced speech, losing single-sex facilities/sports and the increased risk of violence from predatory males in mixed-sex facilities (amongst other issues).

Feminism Chat was once a thriving board but it became totally hijacked by trans threads to the point where mumsnet created a different section for them. Sadly, a lot of posters had gone elsewhere by then which is why this board is now pretty much dead.

What nonsense.

Yes this!

Your version of what happened is wrong. None of those people who persistently harangued for a split of the boards post in this Feminist Chat section. There was no hoard of correctly thinking feminists desperately waiting to post their own threads in their own "safe space". They got what they wanted which was other women siloed and the ability to have threads removed to the silo at their request. And then promptly buggered off never to post again.

This. I've been posting here for nearly a decade. This is what happened, there were about three regular posters and some obvious trolls and PBPs pushing for the board split. Most people didn't want it.

I love the idea that one of the busiest boards, top 3 in MNs own poll is now being described as "pretty much dead"

It's almost as if some people don't want others to be able to discuss the impact of various new legislations, lobby group actions, on children and women.

I always look very sceptically at such posters, wonder why they are not just blind to the subject but so determined that others need to remain blind also!

I'm deeply angry about this but I see this as the 'fault' of the issue and those pushing what I see as a fundamentally misogynist and anti-woman agenda, not feminists. I'm angry because having to fight for our very existence (so to speak) is sapping our energy and preventing us from fighting other vital causes that we have been chipping away at for decades.

It all feels very obstructive and in the realm of backlash.

Yes, exactly.

There is a reason Feminism ‘chat’ is ‘now pretty much dead.’

It is because most feminists fully realise that fighting to prioritise sex over gender is not a stand alone issue. It is integral to a large proportion of the daily issues that women and girls face.

Two nights ago, on that Sex and Gender board, a long term poster without any irony posted that ‘gender critical feminists don’t fight for equality of opportunity’! And yet, I cannot see where the movement can be detached from the fight for equality.

Maybe you do? Do you think that fighting to priortise sex over gender where sex matters is not underpinned by the very foundation of seeking equality and sometimes equity of outcome when it matters too?

And if you are only peripherally interested, why? Or is it that you are happy for others to fight for women’s rights and you can do your own thing.

Which is fine. But you cannot control other women and what they want to discuss, how they discuss it and where.

Almost daily there are threads on that board that don’t quite fit the confines of what others forced in the split. People post there because of traffic. People post there because that is the board they know about. People post there because they want to.

It was predictable. So many of us said it would happen. And it has.

I loved the fact your portray it as posters ”deliberately creating loads and loads of trans threads”

Really? Not just creating threads that they wanted to discuss? But a deliberate attempt to block other topics?

Is that what you meant to say?

“which meant that they started to vastly outnumber the other threads which were just being created in the typical more organic fashion with no agenda - I remember one day where literally every single thread bar one or two was trans related.”

And was this ‘one day’ at a time when something important was happening? And people interested felt it was important enough to them to start a thread.

I think you have tried to attribute a malevolent intent on others there. Do you really believe there was a planned and orchestrated effort to post on one topic over another?

I am fine for anyone to not want to join the conversation. But to misrepresent what the issues are and reduce them to ‘bumping into a transwoman in the toilets’ is not honest.

And yes, the discussions around gender non conforming girls is vitally important and cannot be separated into a ‘not trans’ thread at this time. I really wish it could be.

One issue that MN is prime to tackle is the gendered disparity in domestic labour. Another is violence in relationships. These issues come up again and again and whereas there is a lot of individual support and analysis and some theorising around them they have, while I have been here, not central to feminist analysis and response. I believe they used to be. I'm looking forward to the day when we can return to pushing forwards rather than fighting defensively.

Yes. It will be good if there comes a time when we can spend energy on helping women, or at least amplifying the voices of women overseas, too.

Because feminism is a fight over the world, of course, and we have the opportunity to make a new movement globally.

Coincidence that just as this opportunity arises a new counter-feminist movement also arises, of course - a many-headed hydra that includes MRAs, porn, trafficking, incels, cyber-stalking/abuse and in a move that nobody could have predicted - a new church that seeks to redefine women out of existence entirely!

It's not quite nonsense though. Lots of feminists are put off by posting due to the disproportionate amount of trans threads over other issues, coupled with a lot of blatant transphobia. I feel like the overt transphobia is somewhat toning down now and the actual issue of where trans rights clashed with womens' rights is more at the forefront of the conversation, but a year or so ago there was an absolute peak of disgusting ways of speaking about trans people.

There still are some posters who clearly hold those views but as said, the tone is slowly changing at least to the point where more people can engage again.

You shouldn't minimise other peoples' experience by calling it nonsense. I had the exact same experience with the mnet feminism boards.

Obvious really!! Safety, violence. Would you want to be in the same prison as make violent offenders/murderers. The most common reasons for women being in prison is non payment of council tax and theft. Would you want your DD in there with a rapist? Wardens don’t watch all of the time.

I’m new to this board. Like a lot of posters. It’s natural.

the actual issue of where trans rights clashed with womens' rights is more at the forefront of the conversation

That's always what's been at the forefront. Only some people have tried really hard to pretend otherwise.

Going back to the OP. Maybe this might help working out why spaces are sex segregated.

All sex and gender posts are moved to the sex and gender step so I guess you've been posting vociferously about other non sex and gender issues ever since the split in the chat area?

It's been split quite a while now. And last I checked it was a desert. Barren. Deviod of life. But I'll go have another look and see what interesting stuff you've been posting about.

This will be interesting.. I'll wait!

Lots of feminists are put off by posting due to the disproportionate amount of trans threads over other issues, coupled with a lot of blatant transphobia. I feel like the overt transphobia is somewhat toning down now and the actual issue of where trans rights clashed with womens' rights is more at the forefront of the conversation, but a year or so ago there was an absolute peak of disgusting ways of speaking about trans people.

But I thought that the other board was about sex and gender discussions - which would not be happening if it were not for the 'sex v.gender debate' that the TRA agenda spurred to begin with. Feminists didn't want this discussion - it was thrust upon us.

Also - I missed the transphobia. If it happens it's gone in a blink of an eye because the board is so heavily monitored.

But I'm not clear on what you mean about transphobia to begin with.

I think the romans had different baths for men and women.

I guess one reason is to do with preventing unwanted pregnancy and rape. Childbirth was a high cause of mortality for women and rape could affect a woman’s marriage prospects. I don’t know to what extent people cared about the wider effects on a woman’s well-being - I guess society was very different then.

That's always what's been at the forefront. Only some people have tried really hard to pretend otherwise.

Indeed.

I guess one reason is to do with preventing unwanted pregnancy and rape.

I suspect that the main concern was to protect men's spaces to be honest.

You shouldn't minimise other peoples' experience by calling it nonsense. I had the exact same experience with the mnet feminism boards.

Did you. It's still a revisionist, false account.

Transwomen mostly have the same offending patterns as men. The only time there is a difference is that there are more transwomen sex offenders than male sex offenders taken as a percentage.

In Scotland most transwomen revert to being men once they leave prison.

90% of transwomen retain male genitalia, do not take hormones and have had no medical interventions.

Because in any kind of confined space, women get raped by men. It isn’t complicated. Go look at the statistics and then reflect on the fact that those are only the reported rapes and that most women never tell anyone.

@YetAnotherSpartacus - It’s speculation, but I think from the unwanted pregnancy point of view, many husbands would be keen to be sure of paternity. Fathers may want to ‘preserve’ their daughters’ ‘value’ as a match - which could benefit them politically or financially. Also there were probably bonds of affection and care in families such that they would not want to see other members harmed.