Genuine question: Male & Female segregation

[Fandangoes]

Why were toilets, changing rooms, sports, prisons etc segregated for men and women in the first place. What was the original logic for this happening?

Roman latrines were for men, as far as I can tell.

Women just weren't considered humans in many if not most civilizations. So there was no consideration of them given.

I believe Victorian women used to squat in the street over a gutter.

And a reminder that 98-99% of sexual assaults are committed by males.

wow I feel like I stepped on a land mine! Interestingly I came across the whole gender reform debate by accident myself. I was called for jury duty and had to sit on a rape case where the rapist walked free. of the 15 jury members - 7 thought he was guilty, 3 thought he was not guilty and 5 people thought he most likely did it but thought the solicitor hadn't done a very good job of proving it without doubt, the victim wasn't very believable (she was clearly a poor soul with a drink problem) and it was her word against his. I was so upset by that experience I had to promise myself I would take a more active role in making the world a better place for women. When I started to research feminist groups to learn how I might do that, I came across the gender reform arguments. I think Florence has a point that most feminist activity seems to revolve around that issue at the moment, it was certainly the topic I found most information about. Until then I had been completely oblivious to the changes being planned in Scotland. I had a vague recollection of the JKR situation and knew she was being accused of transphobia but I wasn't aware of the context behind that situation. What concerns me, is that if men can be women then women will lose all the equality rights we are still fighting for. How can the gender pay gap (should be called a sex pay gap) be monitored if men can be women for example.

It used to be 'no debate' and 'die bigot/terf/whore/bitch'.

As awareness has grown and public opinion has inexorably swung towards that of feminists, we are now seeing a change in tactics.

Lately we hear 'I'm as gc as they come, but ...' quite a lot.

That sounds like quite a journey, OP!

That sounds pretty harrowing, OP. Well done for using the experience to take action.

Nobody's subjective experience can be objectively true or false, how ridiculous.

That sounds awful OP.

If you are looking to take action or anything, I honestly wouldn't even mention too much about how trans women pose the same danger as men. There's no need to discriminate or differentiate between TW and men and it just opens the discussion to attack.

The point is, desegregating women's spaces is a process that is inherently impossible to control in order to ensure safety and dignity to the women who use single sex spaces. Therefore, it (desegregation) shouldn't happen.

You can certainly have a false perception which doesn’t align with reality though.

Please get over yourself, the sheer arrogance honestly, I've seen these boards for years and I know EXACTLY what I'm talking about.

Can I ask what has given you the audacity to claim my own experience of feeling put off by the content on the FWR boards is "false"?

Enough of the gaslighting bullshit.

Nobody's subjective experience can be objectively true or false, how ridiculous.

I said it was a revisionist, false account. And yes people's subjective experiences, when recounted, can be used to paint an inaccurate picture of the truth.

It's completely ridiculous to suggest all subjective accounts are equally reliable, but then I guess that's why so many people are gullible about things like people's claimed internal "identities" which may be unreliable for a whole host of reasons.

Lately we hear 'I'm as gc as they come, but ...' quite a lot.

Don't we just.

Of course not everyone's account of reality should hold equal value, but to claim that somebody's feelings of being uncomfortable in a certain environment you are comfortable in is not the same thing at all.

People don't all live inside your head, and my original point was, dismissing someone's feelings toward the same content as you as nonsense because it's not how you feel is completely ignorant.

It's not about feelings, it was a false, revisionist account of what happened. As I and others have said.

In fairness, I think there are more people who are more middle grounded have been around the argument long enough to finally start making sense of the complex and far reaching debate and coming to their own conclusions.

Take someone like me, who is a younger, left leaning, "progressive" and feminist. Not being comfortable with transphobia and very much a be kind type of person, (I'm sure they'll be lots of disparagement here directed at me for that!) but still unable to reconcile the blow to women's rights and protections which seems to be the way the tides are turning due to the progress trans awareness is making.

A proportion of people similar to me have probably felt for a long time that there are very black and white lines in the debate, i.e. either pro woman and (directly or indirectly) anti trans, or pro trans and anti woman. I now genuinely believe there is a way forward where both parties can feel protected and treated with dignity by society, but most of the last few years since this whole issue came to my attention I've constantly felt like a pendulum swinging between the 2 opposing sides.

That's possibly why you'll get people saying stuff like "I'm gender critical but..".

But this simply isn't true and demonstrably not true. There is loads of media out there about transphobia on mumsnet. Myself and other posters have expressed on this thread and on others that the heavy focus on trans issues has put some feminists off the FWR boards.

I don't really understand how anyone could claim that to be not true? Because the issue inherently does involve feelings. You're unilaterally declaring that it's untrue that people have felt put off the FWR boards. How is that possible and how is that "not about feelings?"

@ArabellaScott - Roman public baths were different from latrines (though might contain them). The ones at Pompeii seem to have men’s and women’s sections

www.pompeionline.net/en/archaeological-park-of-pompeii/pompeii-thermal-baths

it was more in relation to the original post. using the public baths would have involved nudity and I guess people would have thought such an environment is highly likely to have led to socially undesirable sexual encounters if it were mixed sex?

I agree that throughout history and also currently women have been treated poorly.

I was disagreeing with the truth of the account, not the person's feelings. I stand by what I said, it wasn't what happened with FWR.

I'm not interested in reading walls of text about your personal feelings about it. I remember you posting on several other threads about trans issues, and I've come to my own conclusions.

Not going to participate in derailing this thread any further, apologies OP.

Walls of text seem a bit of a stretch over 3 -4 paragraphs but fair enough!

Interesting, thank you!

'loads of media' 😁

The line about 'transphobia' on Mumsnet has always been and continues to be bullshit.

Feminists have been saying the same things for the past several years. The only thing that has changed is that now there is public debate on the issue, and clearly, most people agree with feminists.

"There is loads of media out there about transphobia on mumsnet."

In this era, it is very easy to find loads of media content on most things. Does it make it true??

In this instance, it depends on what the definition of transphobia is. I think if your definition is very different from the MN moderating team, then you are going to be very disappointed. However, I believe the moderating team takes their cue from various cases in law and statements from the EHRC. So, maybe your definition is off kilter with the rest of society.

And your long list of extracts is pointless. Your version of what happened is wrong. None of those people who persistently harangued for a split of the boards post in this Feminist Chat section. There was no hoard of correctly thinking feminists desperately waiting to post their own threads in their own "safe space". They got what they wanted which was other women siloed and the ability to have threads removed to the silo at their request. And then promptly buggered off never to post again.

Um, the thread I took those comments from was from 2016.

The women stating they were sick of the continual trans spamming most likely voted with their feet as it was another five years until mumsnet finally saw sense and created a dedicated section for all the transplaining.

Yeah, nope. Wrong again.