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Feminism: chat

Amber Heard&Johnny Depp post verdict

587 replies

Miscfeminista · 05/06/2022 22:58

Continuation of previous thread:

www.mumsnet.com/talk/feminism/4560089-amber-heardjohnny-depp-verdict?page=1

and the one before(during trial):

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4552076-amber-heardjohnny-depp-trial?page=36&reply=117586863

Also, refresher on DV:

www.womensaid.org.uk/information-support/what-is-domestic-abuse/recognising-domestic-abuse/

OP posts:
IrisVersicolor · 06/06/2022 13:14

Chulainn · 06/06/2022 12:51

He was certainly verbally abusive and violent to inanimate objects. He also tossed things in anger but, despite Ellen Berkin's attempt to say he threw a bottle at her in her testimony, that doesn't appear to be aimed at specific people. He may have been physically abusive, although the evidence was not clear on this as there was the issue over potential doctored photos etc. I don't think he was sexually abusive. I think the case hinged on the 'sexual abuse' aspect. If that hadn't been in the title of the op-ed, AH might have won.

However, I think a fundamental issue was she set herself up as an abuse victim in the op-ed but the trial showed she was also a perpetrator of abuse. I don't think JD thought he'd win. I think he wanted to get across that she was abusive to him. He couldn't do that in the UK case as she wasn't the defendant.

Ellen Barkin did not try to say he threw it at her, she said he threw it across the hotel room. Asked if she thought he was throwing it at her, she said she didn’t know why he threw the bottle. Asked if he threw it in her direction she said yes. Asked if there were other people standing around her she said yes. Asked if he threw it in her direction at a group of people she said yes.

I don’t agree the case hinged on the sexual abuse, that was only one aspect of the case. It is still not possible for us to say whether it happened or not. Either way, Heard was not responsible for the title of the OpEd.

carolineshaw · 06/06/2022 13:15

Aspiringmatriarch · Today 12:51

Good grief, what a horrible comment. I'm pretty sure the poster wasn't suggesting all accusations against men result in locking up and throwing away the key. You're way out of line with this kind of personal remark.

Hardly in a thread where the OP calls everyone names who disagrees with her.

And I didn't make the remark lightly. I really do think Adam's position is terrible and shows an appalling lack of empathy for men as individuals which is why I think someone like that isn't the best person to have sons and to guide them through a difficult world.

IrisVersicolor · 06/06/2022 13:16

carolineshaw · 06/06/2022 13:05

IrisVersicolor · Today 12:26

Would you prefer a system in which men are convicted on nothing but the accusation of a woman simply because it is a woman is making the accusation, even when she is shown to be less than reliable?

I’m assuming this isn’t a serious question. Would you like to ask a more sensible one?

Yes, it's serious. Although it isn't what posters believe they are advocating for, it is dangerously close to their actual position.

It’s nowhere near anyone’s position as no doubt you’re aware.

AdamRyan · 06/06/2022 13:16

IrisVersicolor · 06/06/2022 12:34

@Chulainn

It doesn’t mean JD wasn’t abusive as I think he was

If you think Depp was abusive, then Heard did not defame him by saying he was. All else is irrelevant, Particularly Kate Moss which had no bearing on the case. Even Depp said of Heard that she had turned the Moss incident in her head into something it wasn’t. Ie Heard did believe her interpretation, she wasn’t intentionally falsifying the incident.

Exactly.

AdamRyan · 06/06/2022 13:18

Aspiringmatriarch · 06/06/2022 12:51

Again, I think you are a rather frightening person and I hope to God you don't have sons.

Good grief, what a horrible comment. I'm pretty sure the poster wasn't suggesting all accusations against men result in locking up and throwing away the key. You're way out of line with this kind of personal remark.

Don't worry 🙂water off a ducks back. Its the kind of thing non-feminists say when they don't have an argument

AdamRyan · 06/06/2022 13:20

carolineshaw · 06/06/2022 13:15

Aspiringmatriarch · Today 12:51

Good grief, what a horrible comment. I'm pretty sure the poster wasn't suggesting all accusations against men result in locking up and throwing away the key. You're way out of line with this kind of personal remark.

Hardly in a thread where the OP calls everyone names who disagrees with her.

And I didn't make the remark lightly. I really do think Adam's position is terrible and shows an appalling lack of empathy for men as individuals which is why I think someone like that isn't the best person to have sons and to guide them through a difficult world.

Oh poor boys. Noone looks out for them and if they make poor decisions, it will be their mums fault.

Robin233 · 06/06/2022 13:20

@carolineshaw
Just wanted to thank you for your posts.
I have 3 adult sons and a grand son.

Aspiringmatriarch · 06/06/2022 13:21

And I didn't make the remark lightly. I really do think Adam's position is terrible and shows an appalling lack of empathy for men as individuals which is why I think someone like that isn't the best person to have sons and to guide them through a difficult world.

In that case, the same to you. I hope you don't have daughters who will be taught never to say a word if they're abused, and I hope you don't have sons you're teaching your toxic views about malicious, lying women.

ancientgran · 06/06/2022 13:23

I think for many people it is possible to want justice for women who have been physically abused or raped and at the same time to want justice for men wrongly accused. I don't think it has to be one or the other or that one is worse than the other.

AdamRyan · 06/06/2022 13:24

IrisVersicolor · 06/06/2022 13:16

It’s nowhere near anyone’s position as no doubt you’re aware.

Personally I'd prefer a system where if a man is abusive (as I think most people agree Depp was) then women can refer indirectly to that without being taken to court. Even if they lie about other things.

A system where men accused of rape or abuse have to have some form of evidence the woman is lying before using that as a defence, would also be good.

I'm not holding my breath though.

AdamRyan · 06/06/2022 13:25

But, just out of curiosity caroline what exactly do you think "my position" is? I'm 100% sure it's not what you think it is.

Robin233 · 06/06/2022 13:29

@ancientgran

I think for many people it is possible to want justice for women who have been physically abused or raped and at the same time to want justice for men wrongly accused. I don't think it has to be one or the other or that one is worse than the other.
^^^
I agree.

That's my take.
Ah lied and tried to destroy jd.
Jd wanted the truth out - warts and all.

Aspiringmatriarch · 06/06/2022 13:30

ancientgran · 06/06/2022 13:23

I think for many people it is possible to want justice for women who have been physically abused or raped and at the same time to want justice for men wrongly accused. I don't think it has to be one or the other or that one is worse than the other.

Of course. It's just that statistically one is far more common than the other, and is also notoriously difficult to prove. I imagine since this is the feminism board, the implications of that for women are at the forefront of some posters' minds.

Miscfeminista · 06/06/2022 13:33

I have"a hunch" 🙄that carolineshaw is Leopolds user that had all posts deleted/account got deleted banned whatever some thread ago. This is him/her trying to tone it down Ig 😂

OP posts:
Miscfeminista · 06/06/2022 13:37

If you go to the police you stand in no danger of a civil defamation case and no danger of any form of prosecution

Errr right no danger of any form of prosecution…except for vindictive partner that you report? I guess we should tell off all the women who didn’t press charges or called police because they knew abuser would come after them if they do, given not much is likely to happen and they’ll still walk around free after you’d report it. But nevertheless women should just prioritise doing it for the sake it might help someone else-or might not and they end up worse off than before

OP posts:
carolineshaw · 06/06/2022 13:38

Aspiringmatriarch · Today 12:43

Of course it is, in a court system (or in any context) credibility is a factor. But you're not necessarily going to always get that because often the more vulnerable a person is the more difficult, unsympathetic or unreliable their behaviour can be. But those same individuals are statistically more likely to be victims.

Then they are always going to have a hard time being believed when there is scant evidence and the credibility and truthfulness of witnesses is paramount. Do you suggest we lower our standards of credibility for such cases?

The thing is that this was never a criminal case. The majority of rapes never get to that stage, probably a majority are never reported (not sure of the stats). The issue of rape convictions is quite separate from this case, which was for defamation.

True but Adam made the ludicrous claim that no men are hurt by false allegations so it needed to be corrected.

We know the case was brought against Heard because of three statements in an op-ed, the one pertaining to sexual violence being the headline, which she didn't write - the only reference to SV in the article was about her younger years before meeting Depp. The headline doesn't really match the content of the article actually and probably should have said gender based (or sex based) violence.

She didn't object to the title and posted it proudly on Twitter. She also (according to the ACLU who actually wrote the damn thing) wanted to name Johnny explicitly. She also made in plain in court she meant Johnny so let's not pretend she didn't know what she was doing or it was just an essay on abuse in general.

So the question is whether any victim or survivor has the right to refer even obliquely to their own experiences if they don't have proof that would meet the standards of at least a civil case. And we know many many women - and men - wouldn't have that. So essentially it's a gag order.

To some degree yes. However, you really can't expect not to run into problems if you publish accusations you cannot substantiate in the national media rather than going to the police, especially if those accusations leads to someone losing their career and reputation.

Because the alternative, that a man's reputation might be damaged (and I see that can be a horrible situation too), is worse than the alternative which is all victims being forced down the route of an invasive and horrible criminal process with an uncertain result or having to stay completely silent for the rest of their lives.

No, they are both terrible but I don't see an alternative, do you? People have killed themselves in despair over false accusations and I know women who preferred not to deal with the authorities and I can't fault them for their decision. We can't make sweeping statements about these things.

MarieIVanArkleStinks · 06/06/2022 13:39

ancientgran · 06/06/2022 13:23

I think for many people it is possible to want justice for women who have been physically abused or raped and at the same time to want justice for men wrongly accused. I don't think it has to be one or the other or that one is worse than the other.

Rape is a truly hideous, invasive, humiliating crime. Yes, lying about such a crime purposely to ruin someone's reputation is dreadful.

Where I have the problem here is that men on the receiving end of this behaviour receive far more sympathy than women who have been victims of rape, sexual harrassment or unwanted sexual conduct. I've seen it time and time again. The volume of responses to #MeToo sadly didn't shock me, what did come as a surprise was that the immediate response was to try to shut those women up as quickly and effectively as possible. They were 'jumping on the bandwagon'. They must be lying. Why were they only talking about it now, sometimes after decades? (the latter of which shows no understanding at all of how trauma operates).

The truth is unpalatable. Society is far more comfortable with the idea that most women are likely liars than that a large proportion of males are capable of, or have committed, violent or unwanted sexual behaviour against women. Having more than once been the victim of such crimes, I have first-hand experience of how pervasive these attitudes are.

I also feel morally certain, although I only have the experience of one side, that being raped is far worse than being falsely accused of rape.

carolineshaw · 06/06/2022 13:47

Miscfeminista · Today 13:33

I have"a hunch" 🙄that carolineshaw is Leopolds user that had all posts deleted/account got deleted banned whatever some thread ago. This is him/her trying to tone it down Ig 😂

You hearing voices again?

Aspiringmatriarch · 06/06/2022 13:47

She didn't object to the title and posted it proudly on Twitter. She also (according to the ACLU who actually wrote the damn thing) wanted to name Johnny explicitly. She also made in plain in court she meant Johnny so let's not pretend she didn't know what she was doing or it was just an essay on abuse in general.

Nonetheless, she did not write the title and nor did she name Depp explicitly. So the court case was based on an article in which he is not named.

Since the title was different online and in print and she had no control over either, I find it odd that you say she 'posted it proudly' - should she not promote her own work? How else could she have done it except retweeting, 'proudly' or otherwise? It was already online with that title and with her name attached in any case.

Boulshired · 06/06/2022 13:50

The jury took the position that the article headline was sexual violence, had Amber stuck with domestic violence the jury may have come to a different conclusion. Had Amber retracted that the headline was an error and retracted sexual violence she may have also had a different outcome, instead she double downed and included the rape with the bottle testimony. This was damaging in two ways it was a clear indication that the article was about Depp and she had no proof to support this claim. Worse there was witnesses of the aftermath and Ben King came across well.
Amber was caught out in her previous testimony and her own evidence. In a case of credibility she failed similar in the way Depp failed in the UK. To witness intelligent people argue about donated/pledge to try and justify it was not a lie has been spectacular. She has photoshopped photographs in evidence, how is a jury meant not only to believe her but rule against someone on mainly her words. Whatever truths she told got lost in her own lies and embellishments. Her words and actions made Depp not only the victim but also the hero.

TiddyTidTwo · 06/06/2022 13:52

"How else could she have done it except retweeting, 'proudly' or otherwise?"

I thought it was the retweet that was her downfall in the verdict?

Miscfeminista · 06/06/2022 13:59

Germaine is not my"go to feminist"but this short video is a great input in this discussion

OP posts:
Aspiringmatriarch · 06/06/2022 14:00

No, they are both terrible but I don't see an alternative, do you? People have killed themselves in despair over false accusations and I know women who preferred not to deal with the authorities and I can't fault them for their decision. We can't make sweeping statements about these things.

People have killed themselves in despair over being sexually assaulted as well.
My sweeping statement would be that each person is entitled to share their perspective on the facts of their own experiences. If there is compelling evidence this is a complete fabrication then of course the justice system should step in, but that's not the case here.

To seriously believe all Amber Heard's evidence (including things that weren't allowed in) stretching back years and involving her friends etc, is part of a hoax, is fanciful in the extreme IMO.

Aspiringmatriarch · 06/06/2022 14:01

TiddyTidTwo · 06/06/2022 13:52

"How else could she have done it except retweeting, 'proudly' or otherwise?"

I thought it was the retweet that was her downfall in the verdict?

They didn't give a reason for the verdict so we don't know. If so, that's unjust IMO.

TiddyTidTwo · 06/06/2022 14:02

Aspiring I wasn't sure but sure that was mentioned in the closing statements.