Amber Heard&Johnny Depp post verdict

[Miscfeminista]

Continuation of previous thread:

www.mumsnet.com/talk/feminism/4560089-amber-heardjohnny-depp-verdict?page=1

and the one before(during trial):

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4552076-amber-heardjohnny-depp-trial?page=36&reply=117586863

Also, refresher on DV:

www.womensaid.org.uk/information-support/what-is-domestic-abuse/recognising-domestic-abuse/

So you’ve basically answered your own question.

The question is why you’re asking them.

My thoughts too. The assumption behind it seems to be that someone who makes an allegation of rape should be doubted - more than if they were reporting another crime. We've established that false reports are made occasionally, the idea that it's 'more common than we realise' or some such is a bit bizarre when none of the evidence points to that, and we know that in fact many victims don't ever come forward because it's such a horrible process.

Miscfeminista · Today 13:59

"I don't have"a brand"of feminism-it either is or it isn't."

Really? You're not aware of any disagreements among feminists at all? I presume those feminists who agree with you are actual feminists, the real deal, and everyone else is not? We're just 'pick me' types with internalised misogyny or men?

"You may dislike in what way I say things or what I say"

I do.

"I don't claim whatever I say is 100% factually or otherwise correct either"

That's just as well, particularly as you don't actually present evidence or properly constructed arguments. Yours are just rants and name calling.

"but by now I managed to establish what actually benefits women as a class, worldwide(at least basics). What you and some posters write has nothing to do with it that it's actually insulting to read...just plain ol woman hatred."

I fail to see how defending a woman who has lied and made up false allegations while piggy backing onto the me too movement helps feminism or women or the world in general.

I fail to see the hatred in pointing out Amber Heard's considerable shortcomings as a human being, let alone a feminist.

IrisVersicolor · Today 15:27

So you’ve basically answered your own question.

No, not in the slightest. I don't know how many false accusations there are. Apparently you do.

I want to know how you know for certain any particular accusation is false, especially when there isn't absolutely cast iron evidence either way.

The question is why you’re asking them.

For the simple reason that you claim to know or think government bodies know for certain. I wonder how they arrive at that certainty.

It's hardly unusual when someone makes a bold claim to ask why they make it and what evidence they have to back it up.

Aspiringmatriarch · Today 15:49

"My thoughts too. The assumption behind it seems to be that someone who makes an allegation of rape should be doubted - more than if they were reporting another crime."

I'm not sure how you reached that weird conclusion.

I think allegations of rape and sexual assault should be taken very seriously but I certainly don't think women should be automatically believed because women can lie just like Amber did. I don't think men who make rape allegations should be automatically believed either. Men can also lie.

"We've established that false reports are made occasionally"

We've assumed that. We don't know for certain if it is commonly, rarely or extremely rarely.

Or shall we say rather that I'm not certain but other people claim they are certain and I want to know what evidence they have to reach that level of certainty.

"the idea that it's 'more common than we realise' or some such is a bit bizarre when none of the evidence points to that"

What evidence? I've seen none to prove how common or uncommon false accusations are.

"and we know that in fact many victims don't ever come forward because it's such a horrible process"

Again we assume that for both women and men but it's difficult to be certain about it if no-one makes an allegation in the first place. How can we know how many unreported crimes there are if no-one reports them?

Ok carolineshaw, you obviously know better than all the experts who have actually studied this in depth. How impressive. 🙄

I think allegations of rape and sexual assault should be taken very seriously but I certainly don't think women should be automatically believed because women can lie

And once again, nobody is suggesting that. 'Believe women' doesn't mean lock people up on their say-so. It does mean that attitudes like yours are unhelpful because we do know that false accusations are rare. Taking allegations seriously is what everyone else is already advocating. I don't know why you think you're somehow making a different point, or you're onto something other far more knowledgeable people haven't thought of.

If you're actually interested in learning more about the evidence and methodology behind statements like 'false allegations are rare', why don't you go and study that properly instead of spreading unhelpful myths about rape on here.

You’re confused: I have never claimed to know for certain who is guilty of any crime. Nor have I ever said government bodies know for certain.

As you were clearly uninformed on the issue of false allegations - various posters, myself included - signposted research and data on the subject.

Yet, rather than reading up on the material you persist in repeating silly questions that are simple enough to answer for yourself. Indeed you answered in your pp.

If you're actually interested in learning more about the evidence and methodology behind statements like 'false allegations are rare', why don't you go and study that properly instead of spreading unhelpful myths about rape on here.

Exactly.

Indeed. This is the point a number of people seem to be missing. The primary factor preventing victims (whatever their sex) from coming forward is the fear that they will not be believed. Given rape is an exercise of power and the infliction of the ultimate humiliation, toxic masculinity gives an added disincentive to male victims. Women victims are already at a major disadvantage. Society is much more comfortable with the narrative that women are mostly liars than that a large number of men have inflicted abuse on them. This isn't a subjective opinion, it's a statement of fact. The number of NAMALT protestations are a good starting point for anyone wanting to verify this. (And considering NAMALT, a hell of a sizeable proportion of women have been victims of men, most of them on more than one occasion.

The responses to #MeToo also illustrate the truth of this. There was an immediate backlash. Efforts were instantly made either to discredit victims experiences, suggest they were jumping on the bandwagon for taking years to talk about their experiences, or that they were outright lying. The backlash was the most depressing aspect of the whole sorry spectacle.

The conviction rate is low for malicious allegations; lower than for rape (which is also at unacceptably low levels. Cf: www.open.ac.uk/research/news/false-accusations-sexual-violence

This source is also interesting, particularly the highlighted paragraph:

www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/false-allegations-rape-andor-domestic-abuse-see-guidance-charging-perverting-course

Prosecutors must not resort to using myths and stereotypes once associated with victims of rape and / or domestic abuse. These include:
Victims always physically resist and fight off their attacker;
Victims always receive injuries;
Victims provoke / invite offences because of the way they act and dress or because they have consumed alcohol or drugs;
Victims report the crime as soon as possible;
Victims always recall events consistently; and
Victims always get away from their attacker as soon as possible.

This is what women are up against. Then the MRA rhetoric starts on this thread, disingenuously claim that female rapists are ten-a-penny, or that liars and malicious accusers are just as abundant. I could fill a bingo card from the last two pages of this thread alone. It is, of course, its own form of malicious, red-pill BS.

To suggest that this amounts to 'feminism' of any form - allowing the fact that feminism and gender are about the most bitterly contested political debate I've witnessed in my lifetime - is hilarious.

Just the first one that came to mind. Bloke lost his living, got locked up, charge was overturned. Just proof it happens, regardless of what you think of him.

Thank you for this

What a load of arse.
Kind of proves the point about "ruins lives" myths

.

You’re aware that a not guilty verdict and a false allegation are not the same thing?

And a not guilty verdict following a legal challenge that your wealthy father funded, offering 50k for new information, and managed to get the complainant’s sexual history admitted, while the complainant had to move home and change her name - is probably not the best example to pick.

Yes, really bad example. I do think false accusations can ruin people's lives but the fact that this is the first one that came to mind might be an indication it's not something that happens all that often.

As we know the standard to find someone guilty of any crime is 'beyond a reasonable doubt'. I think this will always be a difficulty in rape cases and I'm not sure what if anything can be done about it. Beyond a reasonable doubt and the presumption of innocence are vital legal principles. However, we can also make our own judgements individually. I certainly wouldn't want to be alone in a hotel room with Ched Evans.

@MarieIVanArkleStinks great post, especially about the myths around sexual violence. I hope we get to the point where more people are aware of those things.

To go back to the damage that comes from allegations - of course it exists. There are some very heartbreaking stories and I would never want anyone to go through that. But there are quite a number of men in showbusiness who still have succesful careers despite it being known or alleged that they were abusive. Woody Allen, Brad Pitt, Kevin Spacey, Roman Polanski, Mel Gibson, Alec Baldwin, Chris Brown. People are willing to overlook a lot if the money is still rolling in or the right noises of contrition are made.

When I was 17 my very respected and sought after maths tutor (and renowned uni professor) sexually assaulted me during a session. With his wife in the kitchen and his son in the bedroom. With 3 other girls at that table. No one saw anything.
I didn't scream, I didn't shout , I didn't run off. I just froze and thought this isn't happening,this can't be happening. I even went back for the next session, because I was so sure it was all in my head, I must've imagined it, I must've misinterpreted something. It happened again. I still didn't scream,or shout or run. I just fucking stood there, still trying to work out a maths problem. I didn't go back after that, I rang pretending to be my mother and cancelled the sessions.

I would've been branded a liar, destroying a good man's reputation. No one would've believed me. There were no witnesses. No one saw anything. I didn't say or do anything . He would've been a victim of the conniving, disturbed little liar . A good man.
A lot of posters on this thread wouldn't believe. They'd ask for my head, for a prison sentence, for me to be punished. How very dare I?

Looking back, what I really find chilling is.. how arrogant ,how entitled ,how experienced and confident in his untouchability he was to do something in those circumstances. I obviously wasn't the first, I doubt I was the last.

But there are quite a number of men in showbusiness who still have succesful careers despite it being known or alleged that they were abusive. Woody Allen, Brad Pitt, Kevin Spacey, Roman Polanski, Mel Gibson, Alec Baldwin, Chris Brown. People are willing to overlook a lot if the money is still rolling in or the right noises of contrition are made.
Exactly.
In fact there was quite a lot of chat about Rihanna not being a good victim, backed up by this
graziamagazine.com/articles/chris-brown-recounts-assaulting-rihanna/

I'm sorry that happened to you.
These men deliberately pick women/situations where they know there will be doubt. Then play on that should they be caught. Makes me sick. I think that's what JD did with AH tbh.

Ched Evans was not innocent. He is a rapist who was able to get his conviction overturned on the basis of "beyond reasonable doubt," and brought in a host of rape myths and victim-blaming to do so.

Seconding this. The entire case played out like textbook DARVO.

I'm actually really annoyed by how men have now twisted "reactive abuse" to justify beating their girlfriends. Its gross.

www.domesticshelters.org/articles/ask-amanda/ask-amanda-isn-t-reactive-abuse-just-victim-blaming

I th8nk this illustrates nicely that reactive abuse is self defence when the victim fears for their life.
It isn't She hit me first so I can hit back. She wouldn't leave me alone so I reacted by punching her.

Shame the jury didn't get to read this as no way can johnny claim "reactive abuse".