Amber Heard&Johnny Depp post verdict

[Miscfeminista]

Continuation of previous thread:

www.mumsnet.com/talk/feminism/4560089-amber-heardjohnny-depp-verdict?page=1

and the one before(during trial):

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4552076-amber-heardjohnny-depp-trial?page=36&reply=117586863

Also, refresher on DV:

www.womensaid.org.uk/information-support/what-is-domestic-abuse/recognising-domestic-abuse/

And of course, as predicted, we're already seeing a nice little uptick in the "defamation of character" lawsuits.

Working in the field of supporting survivors of abuse, let's just say this case doesn't exist in isolation. 😔

I might start a separate thread about how abusive men are using the Internet to DARVO victims more by using terms like "reactive abuse" in cases so I can post about this and don't have to get embroiled in "Amber's the abuser. I can just tell. She's like my mum/grandma/boyfriends ex" 🙄

We've established that false reports are made occasionally, the idea that it's 'more common than we realise' or some such is a bit bizarre when none of the evidence points to that,

No we haven’t. You posted the number of prosecutions for false accusations. That’s not the same thing as counting all false accusations as many times CPS chooses not to prosecute for various reasons. You can’t count that number anymore than you can claim that the true number of rapes are only the rape reports that actually lead to a charge/prosecution.

Aspiringmatriarch · Today 18:05

'Believe women' doesn't mean lock people up on their say-so. It does mean that attitudes like yours are unhelpful because we do know that false accusations are rare.

How do you know they are rare? How rare are they? You are making a claim which you don't seem to be able to justify in the slightest and you are obviously dodging the question as to how you know. Anyone with any scientific background will always question claims like yours regardless of their beliefs.

Taking allegations seriously is what everyone else is already advocating. I don't know why you think you're somehow making a different point, or you're onto something other far more knowledgeable people haven't thought of.

On the contrary, I know people who took 'believe all women' literally and stated so and it's fairly obvious to me that people here believe Amber because she is a woman, not because she is actually a victim.

If you're actually interested in learning more about the evidence and methodology behind statements like 'false allegations are rare', why don't you go and study that properly instead of spreading unhelpful myths about rape on here.

You mean you don't know either and rather than say so resort to unhelpful and condescending statements like that. I am not spreading anything. I don't make any claims about the degree of rarity of false accusations because I don't know. You don't either but you are pretending you do.

@AdamRyan
mothers are equally likely as fathers to commit DV on or murder their children.

You: “I smell MRA disinformation. Link please.”

“In the United States, perpetrators of child abuse are more likely to be parents of the child, rather than a non-parent. In 2020, about 221,372 children in the United States were abused by their mother. Furthermore, 138,803 children were abused by their father in that year.”
www.statista.com/statistics/254893/child-abuse-in-the-us-by-perpetrator-relationship/

Child homicide perpetrators worldwide: a systematic review
“Data from 33 countries distinguishing the perpetrators of parental homicides of children under the age of 18 years showed that mothers committed just over half of all parental homicides (median 54.7%, IQR 36.7–68.8)”
bmjpaedsopen.bmj.com/content/1/1/e000112

IrisVersicolor · Yesterday 18:12

You’re confused: I have never claimed to know for certain who is guilty of any crime. Nor have I ever said government bodies know for certain.

I can't be bothered to check who said it but at least two people have stated they know how many false allegations there are by percentage. I remain puzzled how they or anyone else arrives at a specific figure.

As you were clearly uninformed on the issue of false allegations - various posters, myself included - signposted research and data on the subject.

People like you who claim to be informed on the subject still can't tell me how you know how rare or common false allegations are and yet you can't tell me how you know. Telling to me to go and research something is a way of deflecting and not admitting you don't know what you claim to know. If you did you would say so.

Yet, rather than reading up on the material you persist in repeating silly questions that are simple enough to answer for yourself. Indeed you answered in your pp.

What point is there reading up on something which anyone with an understanding of the most rudimentary logic can workout can never actually be proved where there is no cast iron evidence either way?

It's not that I actually think false allegations of rape are particularly common it's simply that I don't know how rare or common they are and I know you don't either. I also cannot conceive how anyone can know unless they are the Almighty and are all seeing and all knowing.

Your position is one of faith, not of science.

MarieIVanArkleStinks · Yesterday 19:13

This is what women are up against. Then the MRA rhetoric starts on this thread, disingenuously claim that female rapists are ten-a-penny, or that liars and malicious accusers are just as abundant. I could fill a bingo card from the last two pages of this thread alone. It is, of course, its own form of malicious, red-pill BS.

Strawmanning. No-one here has claimed any such thing. Female rapists and paedophiles do exist as do male victims of rape and as has been established with this particular case there are women who are malicious liars. We just don't know the precise numbers of either and political affiliation is likely to determine how many you think there are.

I'm so sorry that happened.

@carolineshaw I'm sorry but I won't be responding to you anymore on this thread. I think you're deliberately feigning ignorance and I'm not interested tbh.

I think that's a good idea. Please link if you do.

Thank you @carolineshaw
For all responses.
I have found them very refreshing and logical.
You have stated things in a calm manner and answered politely to many difficult and often quite hostile personal attacks
I wish I could debate in such a mature way
Thank you.

AdamRyan · Yesterday 23:29

www.domesticshelters.org/articles/ask-amanda/ask-amanda-isn-t-reactive-abuse-just-victim-blaming

I th8nk this illustrates nicely that reactive abuse is self defence when the victim fears for their life.
It isn't She hit me first so I can hit back. She wouldn't leave me alone so I reacted by punching her.

Shame the jury didn't get to read this as no way can johnny claim "reactive abuse".

He hasn't claimed it. He said he never hit her at all. All we know for certain is that she hit him and starts physical fights. She admitted to both on tape.

Aspiringmatriarch · Today 00:49

@carolineshaw I'm sorry but I won't be responding to you anymore on this thread. I think you're deliberately feigning ignorance and I'm not interested tbh.

Suit yourself. In reality you are running away from an argument you cannot respond to as you know you cannot back up your claims.

It's just like trans rights activists when you ask them to define a woman or back up their weird ideology. They always say something similar before they go off in a huff.

Aspiringmatriarch · Yesterday 17:42

Ok carolineshaw, you obviously know better than all the experts who have actually studied this in depth. How impressive. 🙄

I gave up trusting 'experts' when they told us it was a good idea to shut down the country for Covid.

Now I prefer to look at evidence for myself and use basic logic to work out when I'm being sold a lot of illogical and unsubstantiated twaddle.

If you could answer my very basic questions you would. As you can't you're doing everything you can to deflect, including running away.

It may have already been mentioned elsewhere, but there's a TikTok page, "justiceforamberheard", that goes through all of the evidence that points to Depp being the abuser. It's worth a watch, especially as the allegations surrounding Heard cutting off his finger are largely debunked. with DEPP referring to the incident as him "losing his finger" in a private phone call between the two of them, and him certainly not accusing her of being responsible for that.

There's also a longer version of the "Tell the world that I, Johnny Depp, man, I'm a victim of domestic abuse," quote that gives it a hell of a lot more context there's a transcript here for the full audio clip]

I have no words. Absolutely none.

unsoftenedorange · Today 07:58

I have no words. Absolutely none.

Not entirely true. You managed five there.

“You have stated things in a calm manner and answered politely to many difficult and often quite hostile personal attacks

I wish I could debate in such a mature way

Thank you.”

😂I swear there’s some comedy plot material here

Alright, so if we ignore the 1% that result in a charge and do go on to a trial (it’s actually 1.6% but hey ho can round down). Their outcomes of guilty/not guilty including innocent being convicted and guilty going free plus the appeal process and again overturning convictions or not.

If we just ignore that 1% and focus on the 99% of rape reports that never get to trial. Obviously some are false accusations and some are not false accusations. I don’t think it’s “beyond credulity” to be open to the possibility that as much as 50% could be false. I’m keeping an open mind because it’s a black box we cannot see inside of.

As the actual number of false reports is a complete unknown, I prefer not to speculate. Speculation is always going to be heavily influenced by internal bias. I would agree that anyone who speculated that over half of rape reports are false is biased against women and as you say “has deep seated issues with women”. Similarly, anyone who speculates that false rape reports are “rare” is biased against men. We’ve seen that on here with posters asserting with conviction that false reports are rare…and referencing data that either cannot legitimately be extrapolated to come to such a conclusion or websites where the methodology behind such a conclusion is critically flawed

All I know is that men and women are both human and so imho neither sex is intrinsically more likely to be honest than the other.

@AdamRyan
How do the people evaluating the number of false accusations for any crime, not just rape or sexual assault, know with absolute certainty which accusations are correct and which are false?

Easy. They make some criteria (which could be as simple as looking at the codes the police use when they close a case) and then compare across different types of crime to see if there's a difference

Do you not see the methodological problem with this? First, your methodology would have to state that a key assumption is that the police are correct 100% of the time as to whether the crime in question occurred or not. For a crime such as rape, this would then dictate that the 99% of rape reports that are closed with no charge are all false reports. Right? Because closing the case with no charge means no rape happened. If rape had happened, the suspect would have been charged. The police are not allowed to pervert the course of justice by knowingly not charging rapists. That is if, we place our full confidence in the police data which you are advising is the “easy” way to know what is true and what is false.

Surely you can see that such an “easy” process fails at the outset? We know for a fact that within that 99% there are real rape victims being denied justice. That’s why I and others say there is no certainty of what is false and what is true in any of the data currently available.

Robin233 · Today 06:44

Thank you @carolineshaw
For all responses.
I have found them very refreshing and logical.
You have stated things in a calm manner and answered politely to many difficult and often quite hostile personal attacks
I wish I could debate in such a mature way
Thank you.

You're welcome. It's nice to be appreciated!

Miscfeminista · Today 10:05

There’s some comedy plot material here

Your views are a bad joke to most people.

This is when it goes from trying to lift women up for equality to something horribly toxic:

twitter.com/mldauber/status/1532374892879917060?s=21&t=FKLMQxxLHXs2Kee08FsIKw

Note one of the "skirts" she mentions (Lisa Bloom) is pro Amber and posts regularly herself.

“You have stated things in a calm manner and answered politely to many difficult and often quite hostile personal attacks

I wish I could debate in such a mature way

Thank you.”

😂I swear there’s some comedy plot

^^^^
You see - there you go again @Miscfeminista
How is that helpful ?
No - don't bother answering.
@carolineshaw has written posts that are so mature and answered every insult thrown with a polite and intelligent manner. - it's like a grown up has joined the conversation.

Ugh that is toxic indeed calling these professional women various men’s “skirts”
“In a society that strips women of real power, some women have learned to seek male approval in the hopes they won't be raped or abused or humiliated. Sucking up to power might feel good to you but it won't work. You will be next.”

her closing tweet of “not today Satan” is frankly bizarre and has me questioning her mental state.

What does she expect from professional female lawyers and judges? That they refuse to represent any man who is facing a woman in civil court? Or refuse to be crown/state prosecution against any woman defendant in criminal court? Or refuse to defend any man in criminal court?

That’s just batshit. And regressive as it discourages women from being full, equal lawyers and judges. We need more women acting in all roles in the justice system. We don’t need morality police browbeating women into self-restricting from any active roles in the justice system because otherwise they’re “skirts” “sucking up to power” and plainly agents of “Satan” according to this random woman.