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Feminism: chat

Amber Heard&Johnny Depp post verdict

587 replies

Miscfeminista · 05/06/2022 22:58

Continuation of previous thread:

www.mumsnet.com/talk/feminism/4560089-amber-heardjohnny-depp-verdict?page=1

and the one before(during trial):

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4552076-amber-heardjohnny-depp-trial?page=36&reply=117586863

Also, refresher on DV:

www.womensaid.org.uk/information-support/what-is-domestic-abuse/recognising-domestic-abuse/

OP posts:
TiddyTidTwo · 06/06/2022 23:58

@Onthedunes I'm good, thank you though.

I talk from my heart. I can be clumsy in my words sometimes and I try to see it all from everyone's point of view and I do sit back and think on that persons pov but I have to be true to myself and what I believe in.

TiddyTidTwo · 07/06/2022 00:02

"Both male and female bullies and misogynist s gravitate to this and are legitimised by society . As these people tend to be (albeit sometimes just a bit) educated and can chanel their bullying traits in this socially acceptable way"

This is so true.

Miscfeminista · 07/06/2022 03:52

All this talk about”an evil mean woman”being the worst there is…I don’t know about that. Yeah emotional and psychological abuse is horrible no doubt about it but compare it to-or add rather-the reality that you can be beaten to pulp by virtually any man if he decides to do so…and I’ll take”the vicious woman”any day.

In my mind there’s nothing worse than taking it out on someone that’s weaker than you and there are undeniable physical traits between men and women that always put men as stronger.

I will never accept claims that JD was”provoked”. He was taking it out on her exactly because she is weaker and people need to stop ignoring this, that’s what’s at the bottom of all this at the end of day. That kind of perversion that I hate from bottom of my heart. If you have witnessed abuse then you know what I’m talking about-the image of my dad crying and”begging”for my mum to stop screaming at him after he constantly laughed at her and intentionally ignored her to belittle her only to then attack her and show how he’s very well aware of who is in control there…that kind of thing can be understood even by a 10 year old child. I know we all been through some horrible shit but honestly just stop for 5 minutes before you call these men”pushed to edge”. They had options, they have seen these women as less than from beginning, these women usually want to make the relationship work and the partners ignore them and push their way until it escalates and then they show”who’s the boss”. Just enough with this”her insulting him is worse than him kicking her and punching her in the face”. I am really sorry if there are men around you that make you feel that you have to say these things in order to feel you have a right to exist next to them but for crying out loud, allow yourself at least in these anonymous spaces to say how you really feel and go from there. No one is handing out medals for siding with men who would turn their back on you in an instant

OP posts:
carolineshaw · 07/06/2022 07:46

MarieIVanArkleStinks · Today 16:28

"You're explaining to me, a rape victim with diagnosed cPTSD - from the position of having never yourself had this less-than-enviable experience - what being a rape victim with PTSD feels like? This feels pretty near the definition of mansplaining to me. You have a weird sense of humour, I'll give you that."

What a bizarre response. I'm not explaining anything to you personally. I know nothing of your history.

From your claims you have no knowledge of what it is to be falsely accused and lose your career and reputation, the latter forever, or to be imprisoned on a false claim either.

And you don't speak for all women either. Stop pretending you do. Go onto a conservative site and see how other women think, those silly women with 'internalised misogyny' and listen to them 'mansplain' the world.

"I can assure you, being raped is no picnic. I wouldn't wish it on anyone."

I didn't imagine it was. However, having your life seriously upset by a false accusation is no picnic either. All I am trying to do is show that false accusations cannot be dismissed as nothing as has been done here (Adam explicitly said that they no lasting effect on a man), especially if they involve a prison term.

It is ridiculous to dismiss one bad thing as nothing because you don't think it's as bad as another thing you've suffered. To say that diabetes is nothing because you've had cancer doesn't make diabetes a fun disease to live with.

"to deduce that the aftermath of rape is just as bad for for the poor ole men. Let's moot a novel concept. How about men just, you know, stop raping us?"

What the hell are you talking about?

It's worth remembering that rape isn't just something men do to women. Men are raped by other men. Women are raped by other women. Children are raped by adults as well as other children. There are female paedophiles who use objects to penetrate children. Female rapists in prison do the same. There might be a lot more male rapists but there are a large number of male victims as well.

If a man is raped then the aftermath is very bad for the 'poor ole man'. If he was falsely accused it will be terrible for him as well. If he was the rapist no-one cares about how he's feeling. He deserves whatever he gets.

This particular case involves a woman who made accusations of violence and sexual assault which have been judged to be false and malicious by a jury. So its effect on the man who was defamed is of some importance.

"The direct comparison was between victims of rape (I don't necessarily discount men from this BTW) diagnosed with PTSD, and men who have been wrongly abused of rape. According to this PP, it's equally as awful for the second group as those who have actually been victims of a particularly repulsive crime."

I think being sent to prison for a number of years on the basis of a false accusation would be as traumatic for many as a rape. In can bring it's own danger of violence and rape as well as other traumas. I have no knowledge how often this happens but we do know it does happen. There are famous documented cases of it and not just releases based on a technicality.

You cannot generalise about people to the degree you are doing. For some people the loss of their career would mean the loss of the meaning of their life. For others it would be something relatively minor. For others being physically violated would absolutely destroy them. Some get over an attack much better than others.

carolineshaw · 07/06/2022 07:54

IrisVersicolor · Yesterday 18:47

Are they? How would you know? How can we be sure of any conviction or accusation which doesn't present absolutely overwhelming physical evidence linking someone directly to the crime?

We look at the evidence.

Keir Starmer oversaw a key study in his time as DPP.

The study looked at 5,651 prosecutions for rape between January 2011 and May 2012 during which period there just 35 for making false allegations of rape.

There were also 111,891 prosecutions for domestic violence but just 6 for making false allegations.

How does he know which are false allegations?

What evidence do you have to prove Starmer's assertions?

You haven't begun to answer my original question, just quoted statistic which honestly can never be verified with any degree of certainty.

We might know for certain that 35 allegations were definitely false because the alleged rapist wasn't where the rape happened if a rape did happen at all. But how can we know when sex took place that there wasn't consent or that sex took place when there is no physical evidence of it?

AdamRyan · 07/06/2022 08:01

Women are raped by other women.

Rape is a crime requiring a penis, so that is incorrect. All rapes are done by a man.

And yes, a tiny number of women commit sexual assaults. 98% of offenders are men.

Stop minimising as if "oh we just don't know, feminists hate men". Look at the data. Sexual violence is a male crime. Domestic violence is a male crime.

AdamRyan · 07/06/2022 08:04

TiddyTidTwo · 06/06/2022 23:43

"I think its outrageous a woman has to pay so much money to a rich, powerful man for talking about her own perspectives"

Dont lie under oath then

And she's had the power for the last 6 years. He was cancelled.

I don't live and die by patriarchial troths just because I'm a woman. He suffered, she didn't.

What are you talking about?
What power has AH had for the last 6 years? Her career has totally stalled. She's had death threats and been relentlessly trolled.

And JD has not been "cancelled". He just played some concerts with Jeff Beck ffs. Cancelled my arse.

Discovereads · 07/06/2022 08:44

@AdamRyan
Rape is a crime requiring a penis, so that is incorrect. All rapes are done by a man.

This is true in the U.K., but in the US (where AH alleged the sexual violence to have occurred), and it is not true. The legal definition of rape is different there such that a woman can rape another woman or a man and so some women have indeed been convicted of rape and are serving prison terms for rape. While it slightly varies by State, the US Justice Department states that rape is “Penetration, no matter how slight, of the vagina or anus with any body part or object, or oral penetration by a sex organ of another person, without the consent of the victim."

Here is a paper on the subject arguing why the U.K. law is outdated and sexist:
link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11572-018-9485-6

Discovereads · 07/06/2022 08:55

@AdamRyan
Sexual violence is a male crime. Domestic violence is a male crime.

You’re over generalising here. Yes sexual violence and intimate partner violence do statistically have majority male perpetrators, but they’re not exclusively male crimes. In regards to the umbrella term of domestic violence, it’s a bit more complex because mothers are equally likely as fathers to commit DV on or murder their children.

carolineshaw · 07/06/2022 10:27

IrisVersicolor · Yesterday 19:29

"Technically they’ve won one and lost one."

Not really. Amber claimed to have won in London but she was not on trial, a newspaper was and she wasn't subject to full disclosure. The only trial that has been against her personally was an appalling loss for her given that it was much harder for Johnny to win. He had to meet a much higher standard of evidence that she was maliciously lying.

"Although I think have both lost far more than gained."

Definitely for her. She's unemployable as an actress now. For him I wouldn't be so sure. There's a lot of goodwill as a result of this trial given that he was the victim of a woman who obviously (obvious to the majority of us at least) indulged in a campaign of lies against him.

carolineshaw · 07/06/2022 10:43

AdamRyan · Today 08:04

What are you talking about?
What power has AH had for the last 6 years? Her career has totally stalled. She's had death threats and been relentlessly trolled.

She is, so far, still in Aquaman 2 and didn't lose any roles as a result of her accusations. Johnny's children have also had threats and trolling as a result of her malicious lies

And JD has not been "cancelled". He just played some concerts with Jeff Beck ffs. Cancelled my arse.

He has been uncancelled to some degree due to this trial. We'll have to see if that lands him major roles again

carolineshaw · 07/06/2022 10:57

TiddyTidTwo · Yesterday 22:01

Have I killed the thread? 😂 I've just eaten nearly a whole tub of salted caramel ice cream after cauliflower cheese and chips!

You're doing sterling work Tiddy. You're like a one woman storm. I'm incredibly impressed with what you've said.

IrisVersicolor · 07/06/2022 11:04

carolineshaw · 07/06/2022 07:54

IrisVersicolor · Yesterday 18:47

Are they? How would you know? How can we be sure of any conviction or accusation which doesn't present absolutely overwhelming physical evidence linking someone directly to the crime?

We look at the evidence.

Keir Starmer oversaw a key study in his time as DPP.

The study looked at 5,651 prosecutions for rape between January 2011 and May 2012 during which period there just 35 for making false allegations of rape.

There were also 111,891 prosecutions for domestic violence but just 6 for making false allegations.

How does he know which are false allegations?

What evidence do you have to prove Starmer's assertions?

You haven't begun to answer my original question, just quoted statistic which honestly can never be verified with any degree of certainty.

We might know for certain that 35 allegations were definitely false because the alleged rapist wasn't where the rape happened if a rape did happen at all. But how can we know when sex took place that there wasn't consent or that sex took place when there is no physical evidence of it?

The study referred to was carried out by the CPS itself, not Starmer personally, which you would know if you were acquainted with it or had even bothered to look it up.

The lack of certainty over any conviction (for any crime) undermines your own claims about false allegations.

You have absolutely no proof whatsoever that false allegations are any more common than the CPS found them to be. Those are the cases identified as false by the criminal justice system.

carolineshaw · 07/06/2022 11:09

AdamRyan · Today 08:01

Women are raped by other women.

Rape is a crime requiring a penis, so that is incorrect. All rapes are done by a man.

Technically yes, in this country rape can only be done by a man. However, that isn't the case in other countries and the sentence for serious sexual assault by a woman is the same as rape by a man.

In this case Amber alleged Johnny assaulted her with a bottle which most posters are calling a rape or alleged rape so I think you're indulging in unnecessary pedantry there to score a point.

And yes, a tiny number of women commit sexual assaults. 98% of offenders are men.

I'm not sure the true number of female offenders is known. I imagine men will be the large majority of offenders but there is a significant number of female paedophiles and women who attack other women, especially in prison. Some women also assault men.

Stop minimising as if "oh we just don't know, feminists hate men". Look at the data. Sexual violence is a male crime. Domestic violence is a male crime.

I'm not minimising anything, you are. You refuse to face up to the fact that there are women who rape (yes, I'm going to use the word) and men who are raped. Even if there is an imbalance in the numbers you cannot ignore these inconvenient facts in order to defend a malicious liar who we know was violent (which has now been established in court).

And to be honest some of the feminists here do seem to hate men or not care very much about them and do live up to a very unfortunate negative stereotype. The fact that you think false accusations have no affect on a man's life doesn't speak well of you.

carolineshaw · 07/06/2022 11:14

IrisVersicolor · Today 11:04

The study referred to was carried out by the CPS itself, not Starmer personally, which you would know if you were acquainted with it or had even bothered to look it up.

Doesn't answer my question about how they know for certain.

The lack of certainty over any conviction (for any crime) undermines your own claims about false allegations.

Yes, it's hard to tell in any case if a verdict was correct or whether someone got away with a crime or was falsely convicted. In the case of false allegations there are some where the woman has confessed to lying and some where the evidence is undeniable, such as he wasn't there or everything was caught on camera etc.

You have absolutely no proof whatsoever that false allegations are any more common than the CPS found them to be. Those are the cases identified as false by the criminal justice system.

No, I don't. That's the point. Neither of us knows how common or uncommon false allegations are for any crime, nor does the CPS, unless they're secretly God.

IrisVersicolor · 07/06/2022 11:42

@carolineshaw

If this level of pedantry is really necessary: one court in one jurisdiction accepted Heard’s version of events, the other accepted Depp’s.

Anyone who thinks that Depp’s reputation is not severely damaged by this trial - the extent of his drug and alcohol abuse, his chaotic lifestyle, the repeated trashing of properties, the relentless legal crises and lawsuits, not to mention his financial crises, his lack of reliability on set etc - is either naive or delusional.

Even among those who believe Heard to the principle abuser, a surprising number think Depp was abusive too.

Only his most blind and ardent fans could believe that his reputation has not suffered serious damage, and he was regarded as unreliable before the trial even began. As the Rolling Stone piece out it: “one more mistake away from being blackballed by his industry”.

IrisVersicolor · 07/06/2022 11:51

With all due respect @carolineshaw you seem confused as to what your point actually is regarding false allegations. Meaningless empty questions are no substitute for coherent argument.

PrawnofthePatriarchy · 07/06/2022 12:29

Yeah emotional and psychological abuse is horrible no doubt about it but compare it to-or add rather-the reality that you can be beaten to pulp by virtually any man if he decides to do so…

All too true. AH alleged JD had punched her in the face on numerous occasions. Even with all the inconsistencies in her story all she would have needed to win her case was a single photo of the damage a man punching her in the face with rings on each finger would have done. A photo or the evidence of a doctor/nurse.

I've been punched in the face by a man and there's zero chance I would have been able to appear on TV the next day without bruises and swelling - eyes swollen shut. As for lacerations, my attacker wasn't wearing rings but he still split my lip.

I concluded AH was never punched in the face. Nor did she witness the aftermath of someone else who received such an injury.

I'm disabled and so was able to watch a lot of the trial. I am clear that JD was the victim primarily and I agree with the verdict. I was not a big Depp fan but I have a higher opinion of him now. She's a nightmare.

TiddyTidTwo · 07/06/2022 12:49

The UK verdict is thrown in a lot as a kind of gotcha. Despite what her lawyer and AH claim, she was not a defendant and this thread with attachments of the judges decision, plus what evidence is allowed means to me, with the judges known links to the defendant is dubious at best, hence why I suspect the US judge wouldn't let it in:

twitter.com/thenamesq/status/1490371524280270848?s=21&t=l3UzoKW41uE2Ix1COft9Vw

carolineshaw · 07/06/2022 13:36

IrisVersicolor · Today 11:42

"If this level of pedantry is really necessary: one court in one jurisdiction accepted Heard’s version of events, the other accepted Depp’s."

They did and there are all sorts of problems with that, principally that Amber was not subject to full disclosure and the judge was very inconsistent on who he believed and why and discounted the tapes of her admitting violence. It was a very weird, problematic decision which is being picked apart now in some detail by lawyers.

"Anyone who thinks that Depp’s reputation is not severely damaged by this trial - the extent of his drug and alcohol abuse, his chaotic lifestyle, the repeated trashing of properties, the relentless legal crises and lawsuits, not to mention his financial crises, his lack of reliability on set etc - is either naive or delusional."

We expect stars to be drinkers, drug takes, chaotic, trashing rooms, in various crises, unreliable, etc. We don't expect them to be wife beaters and rapists.

"Even among those who believe Heard to the principle abuser, a surprising number think Depp was abusive too."

Well, that's not unreasonable. If you are speaking of abusive language, shouting, banging things, etc. then yes, he was abusive. Not much evidence of physical or sexual abuse from a credible witness though

"Only his most blind and ardent fans could believe that his reputation has not suffered serious damage, and he was regarded as unreliable before the trial even began. As the Rolling Stone piece out it: “one more mistake away from being blackballed by his industry”."

Rolling Stone is not a politically unbiased publication and that article was written after Amber had started her campaign of lives. I don't think many are claiming that Johnny is very stable or an angel. What most people do realise is that he was lied about by his ex-wife with the intent of ruining him.

Miscfeminista · 07/06/2022 13:37

Repeat insulting stuff, deny, repeat,...bully tactics. I'm getting more and more surprised what kind of things are considered feminism as time goes by.

OP posts:
carolineshaw · 07/06/2022 13:41

IrisVersicolor · Today 11:51

With all due respect @carolineshaw you seem confused as to what your point actually is regarding false allegations. Meaningless empty questions are no substitute for coherent argument.

Not confused in the slightest and the question is very simple.

How do the people evaluating the number of false accusations for any crime, not just rape or sexual assault, know with absolute certainty which accusations are correct and which are false?

In a few cases there will be absolute concrete evidence to prove matters beyond all reasonable doubt one way or the other. Those are rare. For the rest we have trials, courts, judges, lawyers and juries, to decide these difficult questions.

carolineshaw · 07/06/2022 13:43

Miscfeminista · Today 13:37

Repeat insulting stuff, deny, repeat,...bully tactics. I'm getting more and more surprised what kind of things are considered feminism as time goes by.

Have you looked in the mirror lately?

That's exactly what I would say about your brand of feminism

Miscfeminista · 07/06/2022 13:59

I don't have"a brand"of feminism-it either is or it isn't. You may dislike in what way I say things or what I say, I don't claim whatever I say is 100% factually or otherwise correct either but by now I managed to establish what actually benefits women as a class, worldwide(at least basics). What you and some posters write has nothing to do with it that it's actually insulting to read...just plain ol woman hatred.

OP posts:
AdamRyan · 07/06/2022 15:08

mothers are equally likely as fathers to commit DV on or murder their children.
I smell MRA disinformation. Link please.

How do the people evaluating the number of false accusations for any crime, not just rape or sexual assault, know with absolute certainty which accusations are correct and which are false?
Easy. They make some criteria (which could be as simple as looking at the codes the police use when they close a case) and then compare across different types of crime to see if there's a difference
"False allegations" are at the same level for sexual assaults as any other kind of crime
Therefore lots of rapists are getting off or lots of other types of criminals are getting sent to prison when innocent.
It's really not rocket science, basic knowledge of statistics and sampling will do.

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