US Supreme Court has voted to overturn abortion rights,

[Delphinium20]

www.politico.com/news/2022/05/02/supreme-court-abortion-draft-opinion-00029473 This is a draft opinion, but it looks like it will pass.

I know most of this board is UK based, but just wanted to share how gutted I am about this. This is a result of the GOP stacking our courts w/conservative judges and will impact hundreds of thousands of women in my country. I'm just feeling really hopeless about feminism right now. The left calls us 'pregnant people' but the right has made us as breeders under law. I'm just utterly saddened by this news.

[Ratrick]

@samyeagar

But if such a law had been passed, it could have just as easily been repealed. Theoretically the Supreme Court, which is (again, theoretically) bound by precedent, provided far greater protection.

You’re quite right that the 2016 election was an absolute disaster though.

[Crumbler]

I hate when the issue of pro-life vs. pro-abortion is framed as feminism vs misogyny. To me it's a simple question of whether a fetus/unborn child is alive. If it is, we shouldn't kill it.

Of course it's the question that's simple, not the answer. To be fair there is no correct answer. A fetus is certainly a living thing and obviously a potential human being. Whether we consider that an actual human is the ongoing debate. But it's got nothing to do with feminism.

Feminism is no more qualified to decide whether the fetus is a human being than anyone else, and likewise, you can be the greatest champion of women yet still recognise that a fetus is human and must be protected.

[dreamingbohemian]

Of course it's a feminist issue.

Individual feminists can decide for themselves that they believe abortion is immoral and choose not to have one, I would agree that you can be a feminist and personally anti-abortion for your own self.

But to support a law that makes abortion illegal for everyone, that forces women to give birth even in cases of rape and incest, that will absolutely lead to women dying from illegal abortions or suicide -- sorry, I don't see how you can support that and consider yourself a feminist.

Women cannot be free and equal without bodily autonomy.

[LaurelGrove]

It would - possibly - not be a feminist issue if the outcomes from pregnancy, birth and motherhood were not so enormous for women. But they impact on earnings, health, career, well-being...and often in ways that are profoundly negative. And therefore - and even aside from whether the question of whether the state telling a woman what to do with her body is or is not a feminist issue - this is of course an issue of women's rights. Which we call feminism.

[Delphinium20]

An excellent overview of why this is happening in the Supreme Court:

womensdeclarationusa.com/wdi-usa-statement-on-the-leaked-opinion-in-roe-v-wade/

[PermanentTemporary]

Abortion is something only women go through, because they are female. Of course it is a feminist issue. There are feminist arguments about women being forced or effectively forced into abortion because they have no support - if a woman wants her pregnancy but chooses an abortion because having a child is impossible, there are feminist actions to support women, it is feminists who slogged for decades to get maternity leave and equality protections and access to contraception, and still fight for them where they doesn't exist. But abortion is a feminist issue, you might say it is THE feminist issue. Without the ability to choose whether to give birth or not, we are not free.

[trulyconfuseddotcom]

I cried this afternoon when reading about this in the news. Not only many states making it illegal, but making travel to another state to obtain an abortion illegal. Criminalising those who help someone to obtain an abortion or help them travel for one. With everything happening at the moment, I feel more and more like so many people hate women. I feel so bleak right now.

[Delphinium20]

@Crumbler

I hate when the issue of pro-life vs. pro-abortion is framed as feminism vs misogyny. To me it's a simple question of whether a fetus/unborn child is alive. If it is, we shouldn't kill it.

Of course it's the question that's simple, not the answer. To be fair there is no correct answer. A fetus is certainly a living thing and obviously a potential human being. Whether we consider that an actual human is the ongoing debate. But it's got nothing to do with feminism.

Feminism is no more qualified to decide whether the fetus is a human being than anyone else, and likewise, you can be the greatest champion of women yet still recognise that a fetus is human and must be protected.

I come to my pro-choice stance because of feminism - that no state or person has the right to force a woman to give up her bodily autonomy and carry a pregnancy to term. I personally believe that life begins at conception BUT before birth, this life is dependent upon a woman's body and her life, her liberty and her pursuit of happiness takes precedence over a living fetus that is wholly dependent upon her for survival. The reason Roe is failing in the courts is because we didn't see this as a women's rights issue, we saw it as one of privacy and viability, which is often vague and indeterminate based on many circumstances.

[CanIPleaseHaveOne]

They need to speak up too.

And herein lies the problem - the men need to speak up but rarely do. They need to react to sexism in the workplace, to harrasssement when they see, to gender ideology, and so on.

Why don't they?

My dh has never, in 25 years of professional life called anyone out on bad behaviour in work.

I have three brothers and only one would stand up like that.

Numerous male friends - ditto.

Why ?

[OnlyFoolsnMothers]

A fetus is certainly a living thing but it’s only living because of the woman, abortion rights in the U.K. have a cut off of when the foetus / baby could survive independent of the mother.

[CanIPleaseHaveOne]

I LOVE that!

😂😅

[MarshaBradyo]

@Crumbler

I hate when the issue of pro-life vs. pro-abortion is framed as feminism vs misogyny. To me it's a simple question of whether a fetus/unborn child is alive. If it is, we shouldn't kill it.

Of course it's the question that's simple, not the answer. To be fair there is no correct answer. A fetus is certainly a living thing and obviously a potential human being. Whether we consider that an actual human is the ongoing debate. But it's got nothing to do with feminism.

Feminism is no more qualified to decide whether the fetus is a human being than anyone else, and likewise, you can be the greatest champion of women yet still recognise that a fetus is human and must be protected.

This would make more sense if the female body wasn’t part of it. But it is so it is a feminist issue.

[LemonDrizzleSlice]

@moiraandthebebe

Women will suffer and die due to this but it's okay because we 'Murica is getting right with the big guy in the sky, right? 😡

Just like Muslim countries then.

[CanIPleaseHaveOne]

Didn't Ireland have that? Do I remember some protests about that?

[CanIPleaseHaveOne]

In the first few months of conception you have a cluster of cells that may or may not make it to human being level.

[CanIPleaseHaveOne]

Please excuse my comments - I am not yet up to speed on the new format and thought I had included quotes. My comments are rather random without them!

[samyeagar]

@trulyconfuseddotcom

I cried this afternoon when reading about this in the news. Not only many states making it illegal, but making travel to another state to obtain an abortion illegal. Criminalising those who help someone to obtain an abortion or help them travel for one. With everything happening at the moment, I feel more and more like so many people hate women. I feel so bleak right now.

The one silver lining, if one could call it that, in what you wrote here, is that while some states may try and pass laws making it illegal to travel to another state to obtain an abortion, those would be struck down immediately, as those fall under Federal purview of interstate commerce, freedom of movement, freedom of association, which are all explicitly protected by the federal constitution. For example, that is why states where gambling is illegal cannot prevent or prosecute a resident for travelling to another state where gambling is legal and gambling.

[filo443]

terrifying.

under HIS eye


This is an AIBU topic, many won't know. why the American women are not out in mass protest I'll never understand.

[MrsTerryPratchett]

Of course it's a feminist issue.

If my brother will die without my kidney, and he's alive and sentient, should I be forced to give him it? Of course not. Because regardless of his living and breathing humanity, he requires something from me I'm not willing to give.

Only when it's women's bodily autonomy solely, are decisions not our own. If men needed abortions, there wouldn't be a debate.

And the sad fact is that making abortion illegal doesn't stop abortion, just safe, accessible abortions. Nicaragua has thousands even though it's illegal in all cases there.

They aren't saving babies, they're killing women.

[yorkshirepudgf]

This has really upset me today.

Over the years I have made decisions relating to my womb (which weren’t easy) which include abortion, carrying my own children and being a surrogate.

People are entitled to their opinion on this of course but what I decide to do with my body is my business.

[Mommybunny]

As an American today I am ashamed, and worried. If that clown Alito’s opinion stands, completely overruling Roe, the floodgates will open and they’ll start coming for contraception, gay marriage, and I wouldn’t put it past them to try interracial marriage. Abortion exemptions for rape, incest and to save the life of the mother are toast, which means women will die from miscarriages of pregnancies they actually wanted.

And those girls and women who live in blue states won’t necessarily be safe either: at some point someone is going to bring a 14th Amendment “foetal personhood” argument, which would make a foetus a person and therefore subject to the following: ”nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.” This Court is just whack enough to buy it.

I come from a fairly observant Catholic family and I totally get that there is a reasonable “pro-life” position (though I don’t share it myself). But if you’re really pro-life in good faith, then in addition to preventing abortions from occurring, you’re going to do everything in your power to prevent them being necessary in the first place: you’re going to make contraception and pregnancy tests free, safe and plentiful; you’re going to deliver sex education early and often (and accurately); you’re going to drastically reduce child poverty. But this right wing has no interest in actually saving lives - it has nothing to do with life.

Really depressed over this, and actively discouraging DD15 from trying to go to university in the US.

[LangClegsInSpace]

I've lost count of the number of times today that I have read that this could never happen in the UK.

We are nowhere near the situation being faced by American women but even here there are threats to our rights and the same tactics are being used. Bookmarks are not working but please read my last post on this thread:

www.mumsnet.com/talk/feminism/4289660-Late-term-abortion-high-court?page=35

[SolasAnla]

CanIPleaseHaveOne
Didn't Ireland have that? Do I remember some protests about that?


Ireland had old pre-Indi and Irish 60's legislation (UK past abortion laws in the 60's) in place which made it unlawful to obtain an abortion within the State but nothing in the Constitution. (Any kind of contraception was by prescription and for married people only.)

In the early 80's the 8th Constitutional Amendment inserted a right to life for the unborn on par with the woman's right. There was provision for medical interventions when the mother's life was at risk which expanded out to cover suicide in "Case X" (a minor in the care of the State).  I think this also covered if the State should send X to the UK or carry out the abortion in Ireland. There were also court cases about distribution of information for foreign clinics (the UK).

The next amendments (90's?) guaranteed the right to travel out of Ireland°, and information distribution. Medical abortions (need certified by 2 doctors) remained but elective abortions were not allowed.

° In theory if someone made a police complaint the Irish State had an obligation to protect it's unborn citizens from being removed from the State. In reality it would only be minors in care who dependant on the social worker's permission.
From memory, Germany had (has) legislation where a woman could get a legal abortion within a legal time framework in Germany, but be denied exit, arrested and prosecuted if they admitted they were going abroad to have an abortion in a country which allowed a later term.

And another amendment which was rejected.
There are a number of other cases involving girls in care and women with fatal abnormality pregnancies etc. But officially even non-pregnancy medical interventions could be limited if the HCP feared they could be accused of harming the pregnancy. Which, along with medical error, was what happened in a case of an Indian citizen in a Galway.

Then in 2018 (by vote) the 8th was removed and replaces with a clause to allow the Government (NB: of the day) to pass legislation. (Note its not a right to abortion). The Healthcare legislation was passed the same year.

[TrishM80]

What the hell is going on with America? It's becoming the Handmaid's Tale come true. Scary.

[MoltenLasagne]

This is so scary. It really shows up the lie that women's rights have been "sorted" - no, they need constant defending otherwise look where it gets us.