US Supreme Court has voted to overturn abortion rights,

[Delphinium20]

www.politico.com/news/2022/05/02/supreme-court-abortion-draft-opinion-00029473 This is a draft opinion, but it looks like it will pass.

I know most of this board is UK based, but just wanted to share how gutted I am about this. This is a result of the GOP stacking our courts w/conservative judges and will impact hundreds of thousands of women in my country. I'm just feeling really hopeless about feminism right now. The left calls us 'pregnant people' but the right has made us as breeders under law. I'm just utterly saddened by this news.

This is so fucking depressing.

Anybody not convinced go look at Irelands history and how that is framing the current debate around the building of a State funded Womens hospital.

The current Government are not willing to compulsory purchase or even pay over market value for land. They will spend taxpayer money but dont want the responsibility of being blamed held to account for the services the taxpayer's money buys. (< is all and any services provided or not provided)

People may not agree, for some abortion is a "good" solution or other's think its "evil". But if it is evil ask is it a necessary evil?

And why is having males undergo a medical treatment is a ridiculous argument?

Society teaches girls not to "come home pregnant" it teaches boys "not to get caught".

A little reading on the subject:

mobile.twitter.com/designmom/status/1040363431893725184

Am I the only person who genuinely doesn't understand why @Crumbler thinks my question (below) is an 'idiotic' one?! Because they refused to engage with it I now assume they're not posting in good faith when really I was trying to understand their POV because I can't fathom it.

How about males having to have mandatory reversible vasectomies until they sign an agreement that they are prepared to be a co-parent and all that entails? Would you think that was OK? If not why not?

I think being forced to go through unwanted pregnancy and birth is unreasonable to expect the woman to do, so we're back to abortion being legal. Women have personhood too. And rights.

The language of 'forced to go through unwanted pregnancy' and the like is completely disingenuous. No government is forcibly impregnating women. The only 'force' is force of nature. It's analogous to saying after I've eaten a meal I'm 'forced' to use the toilet.

What is happening here is women engaging in an activity which carries the known risk of becoming pregnant. Once pregnant, there is another human being* involved, and nobody has the right to kill someone else just because the other person makes their life inconvenient.

If there would be a real threat to life, for example a pregnancy where there is real danger of the mother dying if the baby isn't aborted, that would be akin to self defence, and no problem aborting. But in regular everyday pregnancies that doesn't apply.

True that pregnancy carries some risk, but not such that it would be unreasonable

to ban the killing of another human being. Women have every right not to get pregnant. It should - and is - absolutely illegal to forcibly impregnate women, and there should be - and there is - easy access to contraception. But once pregnant, in most cases there is no justification for killing another human being.

*As I wrote previously, the only pertinent question is whether the fetus is actually a human being. Meaning obviously it's human, but when we grant it personhood and human rights, is what the debate is about. The opinions range all the way from conception up to graduation.

I haven't got an absolute opinion on this, as there isn't really a knockout argument on any side. It's an arbitrary stage, where society accepts the unborn/born child is a person in its own right, and clearly the debate has yet to be resolved. Regardless, this is the issue. Nothing more.

Sorry about the random bolding.

On the tiny, minute chance that you're genuine, I'll answer in short.

Since nobody is demanding women get their tubes tied, I don't see where the vasectomies come into the question.

Women, and men, are free to use contraception and family planning. But what does any of this have to do with being allowed to kill another human being merely because they're an inconvenience (if indeed the fetus is a human being - see above).

True that pregnancy carries some risk, but not such that it would be unreasonable

I asked earlier if you were a woman, I will now ask if you have given birth.

"Some risk"? A completely normal pregnancy and birth can be (and typically is) the most painful thing a woman ever goes through. "Worse than giving birth" is regularly used as hyperbole to show just how dreadful gallstones or impacted teeth are. www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3599825/ 85% of women sustain some degree of perineal injury during birth in this study of planned singleton births. Or of course, a c-section which is very major surgery. Even without injury, or surgery, it's incredibly painful.

Maternal mortality rate in the US for 2020 was 23.8 deaths per 100,000 live births. 2-3 times higher for black women. Similarly higher for poor women. Poor, maginalised women seeking abortion WILL die both seeking illegal abortions or going through labour and birth.

Not reasonable at all. I can't imagine how the extremely traumatic, days-long ordeal I went through with DD would have affected me had I NOT wanted her. It doesn't bear thinking about and I assume there will be an epidemic of PTSD, PND and child abuse following this. There's even some debate that the well-documented fall in rime rates in the USA was around 15-20 years after Ros v. Wade because unwanted babies grow up to be at risk of offending.

Ah just saw your post on another thread @Crumbler

You don't like women very much, do you?

And what about rape? Presumably you do acknowledge that a woman or girl having to carry her rapist's baby is unreasonable and not her 'fault'

But how do you check? The vast majority aren't reported and of those reported, the vast majority aren't prosecuted. So do you allow any woman who says it was rape to have an abortion? And where? Since all the clinics will close down. Or are rape victims just collateral damage.

Well that's clear!

Maternal mortality rate in the US for 2020 was 23.8 deaths per 100,000 live births.

That is still a very low number, and it conflates all ages and ethnic groups. Regardless, nobody has a right to kill another human being just because they are at a slight risk. Especially when it happened due to the person own actions.

Is there any way you could condone killing a 2 day old baby? What if it would wreck the life chances of the mother? What if it would be unloved? Would you be okay with killing the child?

If so, the only question is when personhood begins. Because as soon as a fetus is classified as a person, it deserves protecting, and nobody has the right to end its life.

If you look back to my first post on this thread, I clearly took rape out of the equation. With rape there is a very strong case to be made that abortion should be legal. Same when a pregnant woman needs cancer treatment, or any other pregnancy which puts her life at risk.

But otherwise, it just depends on when a person becomes a person. Nothing to do with women's rights.

Nothing to do with women's rights

Using this phrase when talking about abortion is embarrassing. I kind of hope you are a man as your views are even more obscene if you yourself are a woman.

@Crumbler certainly has issues

Is there any way you could condone killing a 2 day old baby? What if it would wreck the life chances of the mother? What if it would be unloved? Would you be okay with killing the child?

You won't answer my question, why would I answer yours? You've skated over the MAJORITY or women who suffer extreme pain and injury. You've not answered if you're a women and have given birth. And not about rape either.

I'm generally regarded as a pretty hardcore feminist by people I know, and I very much regards myself as a feminist.

Except for the issue of abortion.

I'm in favour of strictish abortion restrictions (1st trimester any reason and thereafter medical reasons or exceptional circumstances only).

We do exist, even if we are in the minority.

If looking at it just from a feminist perspective then I'd be fully pro choice, but I do believe that a fetus is a living human being, and can't ignore that personally.

(Obviously, wider and better contraceptive use to ensure less unwanted pregnancies start would help. As would better maternity provision (let's start with some for the USA), better access to free pregnancy tests to reduce the risk of discovering it later, free childcare Scandinavian style to reduce impact on women etc. )

Oh I see vasectomies are just taking it too far for some posters 😀It’s a good thing this debate has nothing to do with womens rights isn’t it? But god forbid a man be told to get the snip.

Amazing isn't it?! And it was called an idiotic suggestion when I made it.

Apparently if it requires a man to give up any bodily autonomy, prevention isn't better than a termination. It's better a baby is created and terminated than never created at all.

It's almost as if this is about removing women's rights and autonomy rather than actually being about 'the babies'.

And the fact is, making abortions illegal doesn't stop abortion. It just makes it much more dangerous.

The whole 'well the women had sex' thing does make it seem very much like pregnancy and birth is a painful, distressing punishment for sex.

Vasectomies aren't as painful and distressing so it's a terrible analogy. Unless you're planning to also rip open their perineum and stitch it back up, maybe make a few of them incontinent including doubly incontinent, have a few die, give a few major abdominal surgery, and that's just birth. Maybe make them wear a fat suit for a few months, give them piles, nausea, heartburn, have a few hospitalised because they can't hold food down...

Seems a lot of work instead of just allowed women to access healthcare which almost every democratic country in the world recognises as essential.

I don't see where the vasectomies come into the question.

Maternal female birthing mortality rate in the US for 2020 was 23.8 deaths per 100,000 live births.

That is still a very low number, and it conflates all ages and ethnic groups. Regardless, nobody has a right to kill another human being just because they are at a slight risk. Especially when it happened due to the person own actions.

3.6m births
3,600,000÷100,000×23.8
=856.8 dead women.

Birthing mortality rate for males who contributed the sperm in the US for 2020 was 0.00 deaths per 100,000 live births.

And why should a male not have a medical proceedure which would remove the sperm production risk from the abortion debate and possibilty save their sex partners life?

856.8 males a year directly contribute to the death of their sex partner.

TLDR there was I thinking okay, so now its going to harder to stop an accidental pregnancy. Surely they will make it easier to avoid that situation. No, lets make it harder for women to even avoid accidentally getting pregnant.

www.nytimes.com/article/birth-control-options.html?unlocked_article_code=AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACEIPuomT1JKd6J17Vw1cRCfTTMQmqxCdw_PIxfs1nGP_JyyYDjxD1fgVRoOH_VvXYq4mYMMv3jOdX5lBLLorDrRU_9NoAnZMGUOus4fW39MMOTk0ooa-GTtu1cKRBuw1tGLgYjn8dbgvmPjvtE2KdTbqDKbZg3RyIgYz9IB3Ng3_gQx-zabDEuBy29J5zK1hUsg8HWFcEXHM6_r4CBx-O8GEagXe7GQ0XOJeUDLSnr2M-u5KMVUSWR-dEiQJsStr48hcOdgXIK_7MxckHcP6irkbAWZoR5y76WtrGLa6Xz-36VEvkaHS1w&smid=url-share

I think it is absolutely calculated and deliberate. What better way to subjugate and control women. They will take away maternity rights and pay next (which is already abysmal in the US anyway).
How many women trust men to be in control of contraception? For many women it looks as if condoms will be all they have access to and I bet the prices go up.

I would also like to see far stricter time limits on the availability of abortion.

I think it is absolutely calculated and deliberate. What better way to subjugate and control women. They will take away maternity rights and pay next (which is already abysmal in the US anyway).

And don't forget that abstinence only sex ed is favoured in many of the anti-abortion states as well. Girls won't even be taught about IUDs and MAP, let alone the plethora of choices for birth control.

And rape is basically legal.

It gets worse and worse the more you think about it.

Why? Women are capable of making their own choices, and do. The vast majority of abortions are before 10 weeks, with a minuscule number, typically for the most tragic and heart-breaking reasons, over 20 weeks. 1%. And decreasing.

www.gov.uk/government/statistics/abortion-statistics-for-england-and-wales-2020/abortion-statistics-england-and-wales-2020

Women don't need to be controlled. Most would very much rather have an early abortion than late. And statistics show that the gestation time women choose to have abortions at is decreasing over time. Without control.

However, if women have to travel, that time will increase. So it you don't like late abortion, the best thing to do, rather than support legislation, is support free, accessible, available abortion, and good education. As usual, that's the gold standard.