Ollie & Gareth Locke & Surrogacy

[Policyschmolicy]

I picked this up in the daily mail, and am frankly appalled. On the one hand I think they seem like nice enough people and want to have a baby, etc … I’ve been a little bit irked about the casual attitude towards surrogates/women in this, but I’m very perturbed by his latest ‘promise’:

• He said: 'As we move forward I will promise I will do everything in my power to try and bring attention to help in changing the British laws to make it easier for people desperately trying to have a family!

'The rules which haven't been reassessed in over 30 years are wildly unfair, currently firmly against gay equality and beyond archaic.

'Why would any government grant equal marriage, but make it so heartbreakingly difficult and frighteningly expensive to have a family, I will do everything in my power to open up the conversation of a modernisation in legislation change!*

What planet are they on?! Of course it’s not equal given that only one group of human beings, i.e. women can actually gestate babies. I mean, what on Earth does he think he can do about that?!

www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-10350235/amp/Made-Chelseas-Ollie-Locke-shares-heartbreaking-baby-news-surrogate-miscarries-six-weeks.html

@OhHolyJesus

Is surrogacy a fertility treatment?

It seems to be classed as a treatment for infertility, so I think the answer is "yes".

Surrogacy is not an infertility treatment.

And I'd like to stop discussing the rights and wrongs of ivf on this thread. Can we stick to surrogacy?

@jb7445 You sound like a wonderful sister

As someone who is doing their first IVF cycle, some of the callousness towards us is quite astounding.

We can’t conceive naturally because I have endometriosis. A disease in my reproductive organs. I was finally diagnosed this year, after 15+ years of unbearable pain and medical gaslighting telling me nothing was wrong. There’s a back story to many cases of infertility of women’s health being ignored and not taken seriously.

Infertility isn’t an individual’s fault. I won’t even bother trying to explain the psychological turmoil you live with. The risks of IVF are being carried by me. It’s incomparable to surrogacy by a stranger.

This thread is about surrogacy, not IVF alone. It's also specifically about two men using IVF involving a woman's uterus, on a parenting forum, on a board that was once called For Women's Rights. Believe me the irony is not lost on me abs I'm not the one being obtuse.

FWIW it has been claimed that surrogacy is a fertility treatment, by a man who happens to be gay and who happens to run a surrogacy agency.

Turning a thread about surrogacy (commodification of women's bodies, the selling of babies) into a broader conversation about medicine/diabetes/cancer treatment and comparing wanting to live to wanting to start or add to a family through surrogacy is a complete nonsense.

Not Dying vs IVF. Yeah, totally the same thing.

There is such a thing as Bioethics when it comes to medicine, it is a fundamental principle of science, IVF being one area.

Those focusing on earlier comments are free to do so but to answer my own question: Is surrogacy a fertility treatment? The answer is no. IVF is.

@OhHolyJesus this is a free forum. I have the right to respond to ignorant posters making nasty comments about infertility and ‘test tube babies’ you aren’t the thread police.

And so you were aware surrogacy is not a fertility treatment.. 🙄

@Clymene

Surrogacy is not an infertility treatment.

And I'd like to stop discussing the rights and wrongs of ivf on this thread. Can we stick to surrogacy?

But it is repeatedly offered up as one of the "treatment" options on infertility websites and clinics. Including under the treatments list on the HEFA website (the UK’s independent regulator of fertility treatment).

I don't agree with it but it is on their list of treatment options.

@KimikosNightmare

I've changed my views on many things since I was 19, including moving to the right in a way which would horrify my 19 year old self. I have not however changed my view that artificially assisted conception is wrong.

It was very odd for 19 year old me to be aligned with the Catholic Church that "test tube babies" were wrong- that was the start of this slippery slope.

Just to re highlight the ignorant posts that were nothing to do with the thread title and topic - funny I didn’t notice you rebuking that poster @OhHolyJesus

And here too - again nothing to do with surrogacy. Just being nasty to a poster who had her babies via IVf. Again didn’t see you pulling up this poster @OhHolyJesus

nitsandwormsdodger
"test tube babies" were wrong- that was the start of this slippery slope.

How are they wrong ?? I’m just
looking now at my two “ test tube babies “ and wondering how anyone could see anything other than two glorious miracles??
I'm sure they are wonderful for you personally but it isn't a glorious miracle. It's the commodification of babies. It's the ultimate "I want, so I must get".

@Omicrone

And I also remember that gay couple who did the reality TV show and one of them joked that if it were him knowing he was going to be giving birth on TV 'I would have got a wax'. Fuck off.

Interesting point on that Twitter thread about how commercial surrogacy has really been able to thrive since gay men started doing it, as now any criticism can be dismissed as 'homophobia'.

I think you're referring to Jeff Lewis and Gage Edwards. The woman who has their surrogate-born daughter is called Alexandra Trent. I'm afraid it's a bit worse that just saying she should have had a wax (or if it was him he would have had a wax). Alexandra didn't consent to the birth being by filmed or broadcast, more specifically she didn't agree to having her vagina being filmed. The first time she became aware that her consent had not been respected was when she heard about it from a business associate. She then saw the footage online. She claims that neither her nor the medical staff were aware of the cameras rolling whilst she was screaming mid-labour and that she was filmed from behind a curtain. She is suing the TV company.

"“If I was a surrogate, and I had known there was going to be an audience, I probably would have waxed,” Lewis said on the broadcast. “And that was the shocking part for Gage. I don’t think Gage had ever seen a vagina, let alone one that big.”
Trent said she met Lewis and Edward in early 2015 when she responded to a classified ad. She had no idea she would be on a reality show, and had no interest in putting her life on display. She said she agreed to be their surrogate, and consented to the filming of ultrasound appointments to help promote the option of surrogacy."

https://variety.com/2018/biz/news/flipping-out-bravo-trent-1202844060/

Incidentally Lewis and Edwards are now divorced and there has been a long and acrimonious legal battle of their daughter, Monroe, including shared custody and a proposed name change, using the DNA argument to claim 'ownership'.

https://people.com/home/jeff-lewis-says-daughter-is-biologically-my-child-as-he-rails-against-50-50-custody-proposal/

Lewis has been 'matched' with a new surrogate mother and he has been in legal discussions with Edwards regarding the remaining, frozen embryos in order to obtain a full-sibling for Monroe.

Again didn’t see you pulling up this poster @OhHolyJesus**

I'm not MNHQ, nor am I the thread police.

I gave some further explanation about how IVF IS connected to one type of surrogacy and this is accurate. (Since IVF was a method of having children, gestational surrogacy was made possible.) This poster has defended her comment, I had nothing further to say on the matter, I have consistently been sticking to the subject.

You can carry on talking about IVF if you want.

Well I agree with him - I don't see how this is different to an infertile couple and yes it's a different issue but ultimately both can't have babies naturally. If you treat one you should help the other - but I also don't think that the NHS should be providing fertility treatment for anyone. Having a baby is not a necessity and if you have fertility problems you should pay for your treatment. People are struggling to get life saving operations and drugs - that's what the NHS should be for.

@OhHolyJesus thanks for your permission to carry on talking about IVF if I want 🙄🙄🙄

@Catch32

It's heartening to know other people share the discomfort I had about the way this storyline is being played out. I speak as somebody who has not known the profound grief of infertility/childlessness, so appreciate that I am really looking at this from one perspective. But I remember how gut wrenching it was hearing the surrogate mother on TV crying down the phone and expressing her guilt at "failing" the couple. It was horrible to listen to so much pressure being felt by a woman to produce a child that she would never even know and love. I do find it difficult to grasp that somebody would put their health and life at risk to give a child to another couple, and that they can part emotionally with a child they have carried and nurtured for 9 months and held in their own arms. It feels like just another form of commodifying women and I don't know what safeguards there are in place to protect vulnerable women in this scenario.

I saw this as well, and it was so awful. I was waiting and WAITING for one of them to come up with a well-rehearsed "oh darling, are you alright? Can you face trying again? We understand that you're a real human being in your own right, and not just a pawn in our lives" type reply, but it was just all about them. And then finally, to the crying woman on the phone, "don't worry, we'll try again". Not a question, an instruction.

@GodspeedJune the very best of luck with your first round. There is a wealth of information on the infertility boards. For your own mental health I would recommend avoiding this board and AIBU for the duration as the constant nasty views will just be an additional stress. I hope it goes well for you.

Oh god @OhHolyJesus - that poor little girl. So many men are so competitive and have such an overweening urge to win. And don't care who they hurt in the process

@OhHolyJesus

Again didn’t see you pulling up this poster @OhHolyJesus**

I'm not MNHQ, nor am I the thread police.

I gave some further explanation about how IVF IS connected to one type of surrogacy and this is accurate. (Since IVF was a method of having children, gestational surrogacy was made possible.) This poster has defended her comment, I had nothing further to say on the matter, I have consistently been sticking to the subject.

You can carry on talking about IVF if you want.

I'd like to thank you for your contributions on this thread, they've been both enlightening and disturbing in the case of Jeff Lewis and Gage Edwards.

If you want to stop surrogacy, I suggest sticking to that topic because a lot of people agree. You won't achieve that aim by also trying to ban ivf. You will loose that argument.

@flippertyop

Well I agree with him - I don't see how this is different to an infertile couple and yes it's a different issue but ultimately both can't have babies naturally. If you treat one you should help the other - but I also don't think that the NHS should be providing fertility treatment for anyone. Having a baby is not a necessity and if you have fertility problems you should pay for your treatment. People are struggling to get life saving operations and drugs - that's what the NHS should be for.

As always, said with the confidence of someone who no doubt was able to have children without intervention.

There is such a sneering undertone on this website about women (it’s never aimed at men) who need infertility treatment.

I don’t particularly care that our taxes pay for joint replacements for ageing sportsmen, or Type 2 diabetes for the overwhelming majority who simply eat too much, or treatment for alcohol induced cirrhosis or smoking induced COPD, but just like infertility, these are deemed to be medical issues worthy of treatment.

@Clymene

Surrogacy is not an infertility treatment.

And I'd like to stop discussing the rights and wrongs of ivf on this thread. Can we stick to surrogacy?

Why has this been moved from Feminism to Infertility?

Surrogacy isn't a cure for Infertility. The debate has nothing to do with Infertility. It's a debate about the acceptable levels of exploitation of another body

Jesus. Moving it to the infertility board is like mumsnet trolling infertile women. Do they want women going through ivf to read these comments?! I honestly think mumsnet hates women.

Thank you @Inabitoftime

Who had it moved? @MNHQ haven’t said anything to me! Can we have some reasoning please @MNHQ? This has nothing to do with infertility (apart from being hi-jacked by some anti IVF people in the middle), and everything to do with the morality around buying and selling human beings. It is a feminist issue!

Oh that's why I couldn't find it. I thought it had been deleted.
How about putting it on the surrogacy board?

Infertility?

Not good at all