Ollie & Gareth Locke & Surrogacy

[Policyschmolicy]

I picked this up in the daily mail, and am frankly appalled. On the one hand I think they seem like nice enough people and want to have a baby, etc … I’ve been a little bit irked about the casual attitude towards surrogates/women in this, but I’m very perturbed by his latest ‘promise’:

• He said: 'As we move forward I will promise I will do everything in my power to try and bring attention to help in changing the British laws to make it easier for people desperately trying to have a family!

'The rules which haven't been reassessed in over 30 years are wildly unfair, currently firmly against gay equality and beyond archaic.

'Why would any government grant equal marriage, but make it so heartbreakingly difficult and frighteningly expensive to have a family, I will do everything in my power to open up the conversation of a modernisation in legislation change!*

What planet are they on?! Of course it’s not equal given that only one group of human beings, i.e. women can actually gestate babies. I mean, what on Earth does he think he can do about that?!

www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-10350235/amp/Made-Chelseas-Ollie-Locke-shares-heartbreaking-baby-news-surrogate-miscarries-six-weeks.html

’08:00ChattyLion

What laws does Ollie Locke want to change? In interviews he said that he and his husband mixed their sperm deliberately at the IVF clinic so they don’t know which of them had fertilised the egg for the embryos used in the surrogacy. That mixing is not legal to do in the UK.'

Don't know (anything!) about Ollie L.

I've read what some other couples want-

Commercial approach

Contract drawn up and enforceable

Change law about the woman who gives birth being legal mother. This creates risk for the commissioning/ intended parent/s.

Therefore want to change law so that intended parent/s are parents legally (all the way though? Can't remember. Would need to be fair while before birth in case baby early).

Terminology usa gestational carrier.
Also (from USA surrogacy site) -
'This form of surrogacy is sometimes also called “host surrogacy” or “full surrogacy'

USA contacts can include strict and wide ranging stipulations for gestational host to adhere to.

I'll Google.

2016, don't know if this changed anything in law etc.

In this case the commissioning parent was a 50yo single man.

Gestational carrier had 3 embryos implanted and all 3 were successful.

Intended parent wanted to have selective abortion as only wanted 2 babies.

She wanted to continue with 3, and adopt the 'extra' baby. She did not want to abort one of them.

Contract meant it was his decision to abort and that she'd be in beach of contract if refused.

Lawyers... Don't know what happened in end.

From the article:

'When a woman agrees to become a gestational surrogate....
The terms vary widely from contract to contract and state to state, but the vast majority will include a clause allowing the parents to make decisions about abortion...

In surrogacy cases, the most common reason for abortion is multiple pregnancies. And of course, the likelihood of becoming pregnant with twins, triplets, and even four or five fetuses increases once IVF enters the picture...

“She’s trying to get the state of California, essentially, to not recognize the contract she signed,” explains Elura Nanos, a *fertility attorney based in New York....

“Under California law, the commissioning father is the father, and *there is no mother of the babies Cook is carrying,” she explains. “So if Cook doesn’t abort—and no court is going to force a woman into an abortion—he still gets to decide what happens. He could adopt the third baby out elsewhere, rather than allowing Melissa Cook to adopt him or her.”

Stars are mine-

Fertility attorney. £££££

NO MOTHER. The babies who will grow to be children, teenagers, adults, may have their own children.
They by law have NO MOTHER.

From a feminist viewpoint. And I'd be confident in saying simply masses of women. And masses of men too.
That is all wrong. Total instinctively deeply felt really really just not right.

Most couples/ individuals I've read/ heard views from say they want UK to follow USA approach (presumably in the States that are 'surrogacy friendly' (wiki phrase).

One reason often given apart from ones I put earlier.

Is to do with inconvenience of having to go USA, including around the documents etc needed to bring baby/ies back to UK.

In general, there's also a fair amount of noise around -

Reproductive equality - help to have baby should not be NHS for different types of couples (people?):
Currently gay men are discriminated against due to sexuality which is homophobia.

Reproductive justice /human right to family:
As above.

Focus is on those who want a baby, are unable to have a baby for whatever reason. And an end to discrimination.

The whole area of need a woman to do all the work and take all the risks is... Just irrelevant, ignored, nothing to do with anything.

[quote Ifitistobesaid]@Policyschmolicy oh us infertiles are unpleasant are we? So sorry to trouble you.[/quote]
You are being completely ridiculous.

The ethical implications of all kinds of fertility technology are a huge issue in the philosophy of medical ethics. People have all kinds of concerns and views on this. It's a really complicated area and it's also really important that it's discussed in a clear way. It shouldn't be surprising in a discussion about tech being used to facilitate pregnancy there are mentions of people's views around the topic more generally.

Some people think surrogacy is a problem because of exploitation, some have problems will all gamete donation, some have issues around all tech interventions of that type, and those ideas will tend to come out when discussing surrogacy too because they lay behind the kinds of concerns people have.

This technique of accusing people of being mean, you realize it can be used for any of these things? People quite regularly accuse people who have problems with just surrogacy of being mean, not caring about infertile people, being homophobic. And it's totally out of place.

It's possible to feel that infertility is sad want to help and yet also think certain interventions have ethical problems. If we couldn't talk about the ethical elements of anything that might make people sad, we'd be in a pretty bad place.

@KimikosNightmare I don't think it's right or compare people who use things like IVF to surrogacy. That kind of assured conception involved the genetics of the parents and doesn't involve an unrelated pregnant women who has to undertake the risks associated with pregnancy. It also does t negatively impact the child, there's no issues around identity or a baby being removed from its mother straight after birth. There are simply not the same ethical concerns with IVF.

I feel I will always be convinced of the truth that the buying and selling of human beings is wrong. Doesn’t matter who you are or what your reasons are. Surrogacy is the commodification of one person for the gain of another.

Most couples/ individuals I've read/ heard views from say they want UK to follow USA approach (presumably in the States that are 'surrogacy friendly' (wiki phrase)

A fellow US citizen here who is appalled at the loosening and inconsistencies of our patchwork surrogacy laws. Please don't copy us! Our notable feminists' entreaties against surrogacy (Gloria Steinem in particular) were ignored by former governor Cuomo (who resigned because he's a serial sexual harasser) when he eased restrictions on commercial surrogacy. In NY you can commission and buy your baby. There is also limited to no regulation on donor gametes - hundreds of children have been born from a single father here. I am pro IVF for couples who use their own gametes, but very opposed to egg donation as it exploits young women who have never had children. My own daughter at 15 was advertised to "Get a Vacation! Give the Gift of Life!" on her computer while looking at colleges. How can an 18 year old young woman make that kind of decision? How informed is she? How can adults USE young women's bodies like this?

Women are losing reproductive rights here in areas like abortion. The US is not a model of feminism.

@MoonlightApple

I feel I will always be convinced of the truth that the buying and selling of human beings is wrong. Doesn’t matter who you are or what your reasons are. Surrogacy is the commodification of one person for the gain of another.

Agreed. Sounds like there were a lot of surrogacy chats on MN over the holidays. Sorry to have missed them.

We should do all we can to treat infertility but surrogacy and donor gametes are not medical treatments and they don't fix infertility!

No one has a right to a baby. If society decides people do have a right to a child, the next logical question is how will we procure the handmaids and how do we decide which women to make handmaids?

Thank you for your thought provoking posts SantaClaws and Delphinium.