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Feminism: chat

Ollie & Gareth Locke & Surrogacy

286 replies

Policyschmolicy · 29/12/2021 20:14

I picked this up in the daily mail, and am frankly appalled. On the one hand I think they seem like nice enough people and want to have a baby, etc … I’ve been a little bit irked about the casual attitude towards surrogates/women in this, but I’m very perturbed by his latest ‘promise’:

  • He said: 'As we move forward I will promise I will do everything in my power to try and bring attention to help in changing the British laws to make it easier for people desperately trying to have a family!

    'The rules which haven't been reassessed in over 30 years are wildly unfair, currently firmly against gay equality and beyond archaic.

    'Why would any government grant equal marriage, but make it so heartbreakingly difficult and frighteningly expensive to have a family, I will do everything in my power to open up the conversation of a modernisation in legislation change!*

    What planet are they on?! Of course it’s not equal given that only one group of human beings, i.e. women can actually gestate babies. I mean, what on Earth does he think he can do about that?!

    www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-10350235/amp/Made-Chelseas-Ollie-Locke-shares-heartbreaking-baby-news-surrogate-miscarries-six-weeks.html
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5zeds · 29/12/2021 21:48

@Hopesakiller I would. We don’t have reservations about providing insulin to diabetics, or performing appendectomies. The fact your egg can’t get to your partners sperm without support is not a reason not to have children.

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MiladyBerserko · 29/12/2021 21:49

They have been influenced by the media trans couple who have had not needed IVF or surrogacy.

Embarking on a willful plan to use a woman's body to grow a child and then to permanently remove that child from the mother is, IMO, cruelty to both mother and child.

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Franca123 · 29/12/2021 21:51

I used my eggs and uterus combined with my partner's sperm. We made a child who we are bringing up with love in our own family. This is not eugenics or surrogacy.

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OhHolyJesus · 29/12/2021 21:54

Linking to an existing thread on the topic, some of what has been commented on already is covered here:

Sunday times 'Style' sexism on surrogacy www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4198047-sunday-times-style-sexism-on-surrogacy

Locke and his husband have previously commented on the failed pregnancy attempt and now this early miscarriage, with little attention to the woman who was actually the one who was pregnant. I'm unsure of what state laws apply to this woman, but based on the number of American states which permits commercial surrogacy it is highly likely she is under contract and doing this for money.

Locke is wrong to state that surrogacy in the U.K. is expensive (it's far cheaper by comparison to the commercial model, however there is the issue of parental rights at birth) and it is definitely not an issue of discrimination for same-sex couples of gay equality. He should be challenged on both points and I would say it would be unwise to trust his advice on the IVF process.

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Bitofachinwag · 29/12/2021 21:57

Why would any government grant equal marriage, but make it so heartbreakingly difficult and frighteningly expensive to have a family, I will do everything in my power to open up the conversation of a modernisation in legislation change!
Well, men can't make babies with eachother. No modernisation in legislation can change that. And it's misleading to say that it is "frighteningly e expensive" for gay couples to become parents. I am not sure why the government should pay for them to use a surrogate. And adoption is free in this country.

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Campervan69 · 29/12/2021 21:58

When I think about my relationship with my mum compared to my dad, I feel very sorry for babies deliberately created to never have that mother/child bond. I think it's cruel.

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Omicrone · 29/12/2021 22:01

Funny isn't it....women have been shat on from a great height for millenia because they are the ones who gestate and give birth, but now it's 'not fair' that two gay men can't make a baby together? That's the 'inequality?

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OhHolyJesus · 29/12/2021 22:02

@MiladyBerserko

They have been influenced by the media trans couple who have had not needed IVF or surrogacy.

Embarking on a willful plan to use a woman's body to grow a child and then to permanently remove that child from the mother is, IMO, cruelty to both mother and child.

It's possible you are referring to Jake and Hannah Graf, who appeared on Made in Chelsea briefly to discuss how they got their daughter from a single mother of two from Belfast, during the first lockdown.

The process was well documented by the making of a channel 4 programme, made with Jake's eggs and sperm from an anonymous man (who Millie can find out more about when she turns 18, from the donor register, unless laws change before then), Millie will hopefully get to know her mother (Hannah is not related to Millie and didn't preserve sperm prior to transitioning) as she grows as the couple are still in touch with Laura, and there was talk of plans to do it again, only they also spoke of needing to borrow money for surrogacy pregnancy/IVF. I don't think Locke and his husband have such financial constraints.
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Whatsnewpussyhat · 29/12/2021 22:05

Women risk permanent damage and even death with each pregnancy.

These rich men give no shits as long as they get what they want. To them women are just vessels to be bought and used.

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5zeds · 29/12/2021 22:06

@Franca123 I did it more than once Wink. I’m fairly sure the sperm belonged to dh and the egg to me so we could mix them if we chose.....like the other parents doing it by having sex.

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MonsignorMirth · 29/12/2021 22:10

How has it got anything to do with gay equality if you believe gay couples can be of mixed sex but same-gender?

Is he transphobic?

Or does he recognise that sex, rather than gender, does actually have some consequence in life and perhaps law and policy should explicitly recognise this?

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Hopesakiller · 29/12/2021 22:12

@Franca123

I used my eggs and uterus combined with my partner's sperm. We made a child who we are bringing up with love in our own family. This is not eugenics or surrogacy.

I'm not suggesting your situation is, but the technology can be used for that.
I maybe wasn't very eloquent with the way I said it, was just trying to highlight IVF can be fantastic and bring joy in ethical ways but one small side step and can be very ethically dubious.
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MrsReeves · 29/12/2021 22:14

What stood out for me was the fact she was 6 weeks pregnant. So probably only just found out, and they've already announced it to the world, announced it on instagram, and had a dressing gown personalised. Seems as if the 'likes' matter more than the actual humans involved 🤷🏻‍♀️

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ballsdeep · 29/12/2021 22:17

@MrsReeves

What stood out for me was the fact she was 6 weeks pregnant. So probably only just found out, and they've already announced it to the world, announced it on instagram, and had a dressing gown personalised. Seems as if the 'likes' matter more than the actual humans involved 🤷🏻‍♀️

Agree
I get they are excited but it's so soon to announce and ask people to be god parents. The poor woman. I feel sore for her but I think they'll throw their endless amounts of money at surrogacy until they end up with a child.
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5zeds · 29/12/2021 22:18

@Hopesakiller I maybe wasn't very eloquent with the way I said it, was just trying to highlight IVF can be fantastic and bring joy in ethical ways but one small side step and can be very ethically dubious. a bit like sex then? It’s not a lack of eloquence it’s the fact you are suggesting thousands of couples shouldn’t become parents in case someone uses the technology designed to help them in ways that you think unethical. Insulin can be used to kill, shall we stop treating diabetics?

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SheldonesqueTheBstard · 29/12/2021 22:19

I have no idea if they will make lovely parents or not.

What I do know is that while they go on about their baby like an accessory, chatting about style boards and being giddy about going shopping and the likes, I wonder if they are living the dream and ignoring the reality.

The way they speak (on the show) is all about them. Barely any word about the mother.

The pain they felt about losing their baby is real. No question. But they sound so entitled on the show. (It may be scripted and it may not.)

Babies are not a right. And when the mother seems to be barely considered, the more uncomfortable I feel.

Money talks I suppose.

But no matter how much money you have or can spend, it does not change the fact that a woman has to carry a child and give birth and open themselves to the risks that entails.

That needs to be remembered.

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OhHolyJesus · 29/12/2021 22:26

@Whatsnewpussyhat

Women risk permanent damage and even death with each pregnancy.

These rich men give no shits as long as they get what they want. To them women are just vessels to be bought and used.

Indeed they do, the women who participate in surrogacy pregnancies, as any woman with a pregnancy where her own egg is not used, will need anti-rejection drugs, and pregnancy carries risk and sometimes women die.

In the U.K. we have MBRACE which records and analyses stats on maternal death, my understanding is there is no similar national record in the US.

This is a devastating story of the death of a surrogate mother, told by her widowed husband, who now cares for their 4 children as a single parent.

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SergeiL · 29/12/2021 22:26

I genuinely think they will make great parents when they grow up a bit. And adopting or fostering would help them realise it wasn’t all about them which will make them better parents still.

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OhHolyJesus · 29/12/2021 22:28

So sorry, link in English version;

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Starcup · 29/12/2021 22:34

@KimikosNightmare

I've changed my views on many things since I was 19, including moving to the right in a way which would horrify my 19 year old self. I have not however changed my view that artificially assisted conception is wrong.

It was very odd for 19 year old me to be aligned with the Catholic Church that "test tube babies" were wrong- that was the start of this slippery slope.

Hmmm I can’t agree with this like. Basics you’re saying women shouldn’t have IVF……
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MiladyBerserko · 29/12/2021 22:52

*Holy Jesus'
Sorry, yes you're right, I mixed with the person who gave birth a biological child, recently in the news for wanting to be referred to as the father.

This is the couple on MIC
www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-9000687/Britains-transgender-parents-planning-having-baby-surrogate.html

My second sentence was a general point on surrogacy not being the same as adoption as it is planned removal of a child from its mother, which is a whole new conscious level of cruelty IMO, and rather trumps all those nuns in the Irish laundries etc.

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Policyschmolicy · 29/12/2021 22:55

I think the IVF argument is a different one entirely. I can see the point you’re trying to make in that it’s a technology that has multiple applications, including surrogacy, but it’s not the technology that’s the issue there. Couples who go through IVF have to jump through so many hoops, have to try so hard in preparation for their child - those children are wanted and loved in a way that mine (happy accidents) could never be. I love my kids, but I never longed for them in the way that some of my friends did (in truth they turned up rather before I was ready for them).

The Lockes are similar in this respect. Not really any different to anyone else wanting medical assistance to conceive a child, the only real difference is that they literally have to rent a womb to be able to do that. In no way is this an equality/gay rights issue. Nobody has the right to rent part of another person’s body. Period.

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Yesthatscorrect · 29/12/2021 22:56

@KimikosNightmare I take it you've had your own children without the use of IVF then? If you were unable to then you would have just accepted it, would you? Unless you've been through infertility then dfod.

If you aren't eloquent enough to explain yourself properly then don't try.

I suppose I should have 'just adopted '. Like it's that easy.

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Nomoreusernames1244 · 29/12/2021 23:17

I think the main differences IVF both parents are aware of the risks, and go through the hell of hormone therapy etc together. They are prepared to accept those risk as they both want the baby that hopefully results.

Surrogacy the sperm donor has no clue. They won’t see the hormone shots, the risk those pose, both to the donor and the surrogate. They don’t live with the morning sickness, the swelling, the risks of pregnancy, they have no real connection to the woman and the fact that they may cause another persons death.

They pay, they may go to a m/w appointment or two, but the risks are all taken on by the women. There are no risks to male couples at all. None. There is only one side taking on the burden of risk, and that person doesn’t even get a baby at the end of it.

This is what surrogacy doesn’t show. It’s all rainbows and good feelings about giving someone a baby. Nothing about the realities.

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OhHolyJesus · 29/12/2021 23:17

Sorry, yes you're right, I mixed with the person who gave birth a biological child, recently in the news for wanting to be referred to as the father.

No worries @MiladyBerserko, it's confusing. Freddy McConnell has referred to surrogacy in their argument re Birth Certificates (on you tube and other social media channels) and though not relevant as Freddy gave birth and kept the child and wasn't 'acting as a' surrogate mother, I find it a deliberate move to support their request that a BC should say what the legal parents want it to say, rather than it being about a record of a child's birth. This particular court case is being escalated to the European Court of Human Rights. Law reform on the 1985 Surrogacy Act continues separately to that.

There is also the idea that a BC could have additional fields to note names, or absence of names, of the people who donated gametes which is something I've been reading more about. Given the number of donor conceived children there are now worldwide, prolific sperm donors, donor conceived children as adults, etc I can understand some of the reasons why this could be considered for reform.

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