Karen

[littlebilliie]

I am so sick of this term being used to belittle women. I definitely this this is misogynistic hate speech.

Middle aged women and older who had an opinion were always respected and listen to, now if a women of any age speaks out she is ridiculed.

I think we should call the Karen term out for what it is.

Meanwhile the ones for women/ girls tend to relate to looking/being sexually promiscuous, or comparing to animals.

It's a really interesting area imo.

Karen is a shit insult anyway.

It's a stand in for b*tch really. A term I hate but still widely used.

Git is a great word. Used to great effect in Blackadder once (been watching with the kids!).

I think we have a history of really relishing well honed insults here. My understanding is USA is rather more reticent with swearing. I mean I don't actually know.

I do see sometimes though words that we use crop up in Pg stuff etc and I think... Is that in purpose? Does it mean something else there? Wanker once. I remember.

What I always wonder is how fuck is considered strong while bugger is mild.

Sorry totally veering off now.

Never heard any of those!

Bullshitter isn't really used round my way.

Talking bollocks would be more usual.

He/ they talk a lot of shit maybe.

Big bollocks means.. dick swinging?

The ones I hate at work are balls deep/ balls to the wall. Didn't know those ones before this job!

Going back to the topic, I don’t really like the term ‘Karen’. However, it’s here to stay by the looks of it, so it seems to very much be throwing the baby out with the bathwater not to at least give some consideration to the behaviours that spawned the meme in the first place.

I do think there are definitely a subset of bullying women who use their privilege as a weapon against other women below them in the pecking order, and to focus the argument solely on moaning about the misuse of the term negates discussion of this issue and makes the whole thing effectively pointless when at least something constructive could have come from it. Right now it’s all about the white middle class women called Karen and how horrible it is for them, rather the the working class woman and WOC who were the original victims of said ‘Karens’. I know this view annoys some as there are a lot of women who are only used to being the victim and don’t like to examine their own privilege and behaviour.

I do see sometimes though words that we use crop up in Pg stuff etc and I think... Is that in purpose? Does it mean something else there? Wanker once. I remember.

One that took me aback was in the American film Matilda, which I saw with DD recently. Pam Ferris's Trunchbull bellowed "PISS WORM!" at little Matilda and I thought, whoa, really, Pam?! At a child? I keep meaning to check if that particular insult was in the book. I read it with DD and I really don't think it was!

Piss worm? Age inappropriate and also what does it even mean!!!

Kay sorry I know you don't like my posts but I'm just confused.

I thought Karen started in USA about white women exercising power over black men. (And women?).
Then it evolved into this wealthy white woman who was just up herself and rude to people working in shops etc.

Then it spread and on the net seems to be used fairly willy nilly to women who say things that others disagree with. Generally middle aged etc. There was a lot of stuff about a haircut or something?

Your post says
'Right now it’s all about the white middle class women called Karen and how horrible it is for them, rather the the working class woman and WOC who were the original victims of said ‘Karens’. I know this view annoys some as there are a lot of women who are only used to being the victim and don’t like to examine their own privilege and behaviour.'

But the massive point here is that in the UK the name Karen is not and never has been a 'middle class' name.

That's why it DOESN'T WORK HERE.

Sorry to shout.

But the women upset about their name being used this way are perfectly likely to be Karens working in the roles that you seem to think attract horrible behaviour from well off women.

The women called Karen who you- despite your posts about using terms to apply to whole groups which are not related to behaviour but characteristics. You cast as middle class (meaning well off?), privileged and used to being the victim. ARE plenty likely to be women working in lower paid service industry roles.

You're all back to front.

And IME in general.

Posh (you mean posh/ rich really I think) women here just don't have more form for throwing their weight about in shops etc than anyone else.

In fact (interested in others experiences) posh/rich women generally tend to be ultra polite. That's a class thing. Exercising power due to wealth/ position over people who can't put up a fight is seen as crass, unpleasant, embarrassing.

Yes people of all sorts can be arseholes. But I just don't recognise this dynamic you seem to be very familiar with at all.

IME the worst complainers are young men when it comes with a large side helping of aggression.

Where do you live/ work/ shop that you see this anyway?

Are you talking like. What level? Not an expert! Erm. The royal opera House? La gavroche? Um.

Or like. Local places where a steak is upwards of 25 quid?

Marks and Spencers food?

Seriously who are we talking about?!

Or like. Medium to very fancy corporate things?

Oh as promised to pp here's a fine example of the beauty of 'git'

Yes, the actual name Karen isn't particularly posh in the UK but the type of individual described definitely exists. IME men can be pretty rude but are much less likely to formally complain.

For example, at my previous company they looked at the complaints log and worked out that around 80% of the people who complained about our drivers were women. And this wasn't about men shouting things out the window etc because all the wagons had cameras on the wing mirror which you could see the driver in (so they wouldn't be stupid enough to do this). Just cases of accidentally cutting in too close etc which is easier to do in a lorry than a car as it's hard to judge the distance. Men seemed to just beep the horn and shout something but women would call in and complain.

The other common complaint we had was car drivers being blocked in after parking in the loading bay/yellow box. So many woman used to call in furious that the driver wouldn't move the truck and had made them wait five minutes despite them being illegally parked and the driver having been halfway through unloading by the time they got back (so unable to just move the truck quickly as tail lift down etc).

My experience is definitely that women complain more for better or worse and I think this probably contributes somewhat to the stereotype, which has now become extremely exaggerated as most stereotypes are.

Kay please I don't get it.

You said this
'Right now it’s all about the white middle class women called Karen and how horrible it is for them, rather the the working class woman and WOC who were the original victims of said ‘Karens’. I know this view annoys some as there are a lot of women who are only used to being the victim and don’t like to examine their own privilege and behaviour.'

Then you said this
'Yes, the actual name Karen isn't particularly posh in the UK but the type of individual described definitely exists. '

Those two things totally contradict each other.

You can see that, right? Or not?

But the massive point here is that in the UK the name Karen is not and never has been a 'middle class' name

I would say Karen has no class connotations in Scotland. All of the Karens I know are middle class and one is from an aristocratic, military family listed in Debretts.

I'm puzzled by Kay's determination that it has any valid use.

For example, at my previous company they looked at the complaints log and worked out that around 80% of the people who complained about our drivers were women

Why would they do that?

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make. Is cutting in too early to the point of scaring other drivers irrelevant if it's done to a female driver.

Of course every statistic on fatal and serious traffic accidents will show men are around 3 times as likely as women to be the cause. It's hardly surprising women are more likely to complain about aggressive driving.

On the example of women complaining more. 80% now although 99% I think it was earlier.

Just the one experience? And sounds like not in a direct public facing service type role.

I think that example has a lot of dynamics going on with it. Ones that each could fill s thread with arguing!

I do wonder though how that example relates to what a Karen is, by Kay's definition.

IE. A middle class privileged woman who enjoys belittling women who are.. working class/ in a service industry role and the MC woman is a customer.

Something like that.

How does Kay know the women complaining were middle class? How does it relate to the woman treating less wealthy women badly, if the complaints are about drivers mainly men?

I don't get it.

Good analysis there.

I suppose it's plausible that female drivers are more likely to be middle class than not. Although given the situation here was complaining about aggressive driving, by definition the complainers have to be in the class of people who own or have access to a car, I can't see what relevance their social class is.

I'm perplexed and a bit disturbed that a haulage/ delivery company thinks there is any justification in breaking down the complaints about poor driving into those made by women and those made by men. Why? What data do they think can be extrapolated from that?

All I get from it is women take poor or aggressive driving more seriously than men.

In retail men complain (to the business) slightly more then women, but they are likely to complain about out of stock items/long waiting times whereas women lead the way in complaining about staff members.

www.qudini.com/men-vs-women-complaints-about-poor-experience-within-retail-stores/

Women lead the way in complaining about staff members

Which of course raises the interesting question of whether women are just bigger complainers or are actually getting worse service. We know there are many contexts where men get more respect and attention than women, would not be a huge leap if retail were one of them.

Who does most the of the shopping...

An angle missed there.

(Women is the answer. Interestingly I've seen the fact that women are the ones who do the most spending in shops cited as a female privilege... Ooh yay! Family shop! Don't forget grandpa's laxatives! Oh god they're out of the cheaper nappies that don't leak... Now where's that MN chicken it'll need to go a week...).

@NiceGerbil

Who does most the of the shopping...

An angle missed there.

(Women is the answer. Interestingly I've seen the fact that women are the ones who do the most spending in shops cited as a female privilege... Ooh yay! Family shop! Don't forget grandpa's laxatives! Oh god they're out of the cheaper nappies that don't leak... Now where's that MN chicken it'll need to go a week...).

Yeah, considered that but it looks like the infographic is % of men vs % of women so having different total #s of men and women wouldn't affect the comparison. I couldn't get to the source report to be sure, but that's why I didn't mention it.

What is ever the point of reporting a staff member to the manager, ever, though? Honest question. If it's criminal behaviour (they steal your change or whatever) then you'd challenge it and perhaps involve the police, but in general, wouldn't you shrug it off?

The only time I remember feeling bothered by a staff member was in a charity shop, when one fella kept following me around asking personal questions. He clearly had learning difficulties, though, so it wouldn't have felt right to complain. So I didn't.

I'm not going for Martyr of the Year award, I just don't see the point in having a pop at someone working what can often be a pretty unpleasant job.

@NiceGerbil

Kay please I don't get it.

You said this
'Right now it’s all about the white middle class women called Karen and how horrible it is for them, rather the the working class woman and WOC who were the original victims of said ‘Karens’. I know this view annoys some as there are a lot of women who are only used to being the victim and don’t like to examine their own privilege and behaviour.'

Then you said this
'Yes, the actual name Karen isn't particularly posh in the UK but the type of individual described definitely exists. '

Those two things totally contradict each other.

You can see that, right? Or not?

Yes, those posts are a bit contradictory. What I really meant wasn't so much that it was middle class women called Karen but more that it's MC women complaining about the whole Karen thing.

With the driving complaints I speculate that it's partly down to women feeling more powerless against men than other men do. So a couple of guys will often posture in an argument, sometimes becoming violent but usually just chest puffing and posturing. Women don't do this as they know they're not a physical threat to 99% of men. So they fight back in a different way.

Although on the other hand, I'd imagine it is potentially even more emasculating for some men in the instance that they have to back down (e.g. when facing a man twice their size) because men are still judged in this way even if not consciously. As an example, I'd imagine most men will feel a lot worse not reacting to another man insulting their partner than a women will in the same situation because the man is still seen as 'the protector' by many even if it is an incredibly old fashioned stereotype. If somebody says 'don't fancy yours' to a random bloke in the street and he doesn't at least say something back he will be seen as weak by many.

Sorry bit of a tangent...

@KayKayWat

Sorry bit of a tangent...

This thread has been off-topic for a while.

I personally don't mind if NG wants to go on posting classic moments from Blackadder.