Karen

[littlebilliie]

I am so sick of this term being used to belittle women. I definitely this this is misogynistic hate speech.

Middle aged women and older who had an opinion were always respected and listen to, now if a women of any age speaks out she is ridiculed.

I think we should call the Karen term out for what it is.

190% agree

I too have been referred to as a 'Karen' for calling out sexist bullshit. Ironically my name IS Karen. I didn't care to to share that with the twat though.
I rarely engage with social media these days. Quite glad I no longer have a facefuck account, I find the world a sad place to live in now as a woman.

A common woman's name was used because it's supposed to conjure up an image of a regular woman, the kind we run into every day.
It's meant to make all women feel like they can be a Karen as soon as she becomes too angry or assertive.

@Jng1

I hate it too. What I hate even more is women using it about other women - shows a real lack of intelligence and understanding!

Same! Its just awful

@MatildaIThink

I think it depends on your social circle, in mine women were always listened to and still are. Some of them are occasionally "Karens", but I think a lot of people are occasionally, I am sure we have all seen the Karen type making an issue of nothing, just as we have seen a man doing it, or know a Victor Meldrew type man.

Not everything you disagree with is hate speech. Often for a meme to take hold it needs an element of truth for people to latch onto. Indeed complaining that Karen is "misogynistic hate speech" is a pretty "Karen" thing to do.

Nonsense.

What's a "Karen" type?

Do only middle- aged, middle class white women complain about things without justification? That's certainly not been my life - experience. Yet there's no names or memes for them.

You mentioned "Victor Meldrew" but it's no way comparable. It isn't used in the same way; it's referring to one particular character which I bet outside of a certain age group in the UK most people haven't even heard of.

The only part of your post which has some truth is that complaining about this nasty, hackneyed put down will indeed be viewed as evidence of being a "Karen".

@BalladOfBarryAndFreda

I really hate it too and sadly it seems to mostly be used by women 😞, the internalised misogyny and ageism is painfully obvious.

Seconded 100%.

So, is the jury out on this one?

Is the term Karen misogynistic? and therefore hate speech?

It's misogynistic and lazy. Personally I think anyone using it lacks imagination and is a bit dim.

As another poster said it's "a good way of spotting people whose opinions aren't worth consideration"

Agreed. Another way to
Silence women, and women of an age

@HighNetGirth

Another very specific African-American term that has been picked up and misused to the point of being meaningless. Like 'woke' (now perjorative) and many others.

It did not start out as a term to use to dismiss women. It was about certain behaviours by white women (usually, but also men) with some status to browbeat and threaten black Americans out of doing their jobs or standing up for themselves.

"Karen" itself is not a "very specific African-American term", though. This is a false narrative, and one which many believe is intentionally constructed and pushed by anti-woman activists with the negative impact to the US black community as acceptable collateral damage.

In black culture in the US, it's very common to use a person's name to reference something that person is known for, and then it gets picked up by others who may not know that person. This practice pre-dates the internet, but once the internet came into play the individual names would be used far more widely.

When consciousness was being raised among the general population in the US about racist police brutality, people who "called the cops" on black citizens for trivial reasons or no reason came under a lot of scrutiny. We saw names like "Permit Patty" and "BBQ Becky" go viral because people were talking about a specific incident before the name of the perpetrator was known or made public.

"Karen", though, went viral around the same time for a different reason which has nothing to do with the US black community (or communities). It comes from a white boy who started a page on Reddit called "/r/fuckyoukaren". He said that Karen was his ex-wife and detailed how she had hurt him/screwed him over. He invited others to rail against "Karen", which, given the demographics and focus of Reddit, included a LOT of sexual violence. It later turned out this was a teenager, so probably a fake story about the ex-wife. The page is still up if anyone wants to look.

Anyway, racists picked this up and blamed the sexist term "Karen" on the US black community, specifically black women. I understand it's also ageist and classist in a UK context, but at this point I'd mainly consider use of the term an example of anti-black racism.

And of course it's very "Karen" to point out the racist, sexist truth about "Karen". Damned if you do and damned if you don't - always guilty. That's how racism (and sexism) persists and replicates itself.

It goes both ways, "male Karens" are often called Ken.

From my understanding it isn't about "having an opinion" it's about how one expresses said opinion. For example if you are eating a meal in a restaurant and something wasn't up to standards, then having a quiet polite word with the staff about it would be fine. But if you were to (eg) scream at the staff, knock a table over and throw your dinner across the place because your fries were a little burnt then people would probably call you a Karen/Ken.

From my understanding it isn't about "having an opinion" it's about how one expresses said opinion. For example if you are eating a meal in a restaurant and something wasn't up to standards, then having a quiet polite word with the staff about it would be fine. But if you were to (eg) scream at the staff, knock a table over and throw your dinner across the place because your fries were a little burnt then people would probably call you a Karen/Ken.

Except that’s not how it’s being used. It’s been used on this very thread to tell women that if you have complained about being called a Karen then you’re a Karen!

This is the problem, everyone says “oh this is my understanding of what a Karen is…” but guess what, there isn’t actually a definition of a Karen (because Karen’s don’t actually exist) so everyone just applies it when they personally see it as justified. Which means any woman, for any reason can be called a Karen. (Which is what is happening) Which proves its utter nonsense.

@KimikosNightmare

So, is the jury out on this one?

Is the term Karen misogynistic? and therefore hate speech?

It's misogynistic and lazy. Personally I think anyone using it lacks imagination and is a bit dim.

As another poster said it's "a good way of spotting people whose opinions aren't worth consideration"

This.

Another helpful though unintended consequence of someone using it is that it shows me they lack the bollocks to actually really challenge or try to engage with another person over their perceived wrongdoing.

It goes both ways, "male Karens" are often called Ken

I've recently noticed that complaining men have started being called Karen too.

@lazylinguist

There was a thread calling for MNHQ to auto-ban 'Karen', which is frankly ridiculous. You could write a list of a gazillion words which are sexist and insulting - and another list of words which are insilting to all kinds of other groups. We can't ban them all, or it would get silly. Personally I'm happy to let these words stand - they are a good way of spotting people whose opinions aren't worth consideration.

Facebook had issues with this.

They tried to ban works like "fat" and "b*tch" and a load of cooking and dog related pages got taken down!

I think "Karen" started out being aimed at people who would compain when it was uncassary, or disporortiablty when there was a small problem. But it spread and changed and is now aimed at anyone daring to have a differing opinion

Although names like “Ken” or “Chad” are referenced as male equivalents, the phrase “male Karen’s” is more common and always an explainer, marking the behaviour as inherently female in a man, even if it isn’t actually.

If you don’t like someone’s behaviour, then address that behaviour, not their age/sex/appearance, as it immediately devalues your opinion.

It goes both ways, "male Karens" are often called Ken

No they are not.

If you don’t like someone’s behaviour, then address that behaviour, not their age/sex/appearance, as it immediately devalues your opinion

Exactly. The "oh it happens to men because they get called Ken" is a ridiculous (and untrue) comparator.

Chad isn't a male equivalent of Karen, it's basically refers to a stereotypical "alpha" man with muscles. There's a meme about it.

I've never heard it irl. Has anyone else?

Round here the usual words for women/ girls are used to insult.

I do feel sorry for women called Karen though.

The other thing is it's another thing just imported from USA where we just don't have same context. This keeps happening more and more and it gets on my tits.

Karen first was about USA white women calling police to get black man into trouble. Yes police are racist here but the dynamic isn't the same at all, the history. If I called police and said black man following me crying. They'd tell me to piss off. If they picked up. And they don't generally have guns.

USA problem yes. Doesn't translate.

Then became about wealthy MC women of a certain age being horrible to those working in shops etc. Only here the name Karen is not a sign of wealth etc. Doesn't translate.

Like this fella on a while back who said posters were Karen's. And he bet all had pony tails and trackie bottoms on... !!??!! Lol....

Anyway. Never heard in RL.

Chad is not a name here it's a drawing of someone looking over a wall saying 'wot no' something in the 80s.

Ken? I know a few Kens. All in their 70s/80s....

I think it's just a name for women being incredibly unreasonable isn't it?

I spent some time on Reddit and an example Karen was someone who drove the wrong way around a carpark to try to get into a McDonalds drive through bqueue, got furious when a car already in the queue wouldn't let her in ahead of them, got out of her own car and stood in front of their car refusing to move, called the police to try and get them to make the other car let them in...

A bit unfair on women actually called Karen, and I don't know if there is an equivalent for men aside from dickhead, but I don't think it means a woman who has an opinion, more a woman who is entitled and unreasonable.

@NiceGerbil

Chad is not a name here it's a drawing of someone looking over a wall saying 'wot no' something in the 80s.

Ken? I know a few Kens. All in their 70s/80s....

The Chad is on the loose, trying to check it out...

i actually got called a karen after i posted a comment on a youtube video , it was a vid by one of dds favourite you tubers who has made a fortune by filming herself playing roblox adopt me , i merely said in the comment i thought she needed to be responsible for the fact her viewers were mainly kids and she shouldnt be fostering the notion that the common pets in the game were trash versus the ledgendarys , thereby contributing to the terrible scamming that kids do to each other in this game , and under my comment several hours later there it was karen , im not sure if it makes it worse or better it was probably a kid that bloody called me it !

but i agree its now an insult to shut a woman up for having an opinion , even if in this case i thought it was a reasonable one , and its lazy as well . rather than tell someone why you dont agree you just call them a karen and its job done ,

My name is Karen. I've said this before on another thread, one where a woman actually changed her name because of it..... My lovely mum (rip) gave me my name and loved it. It's upsetting it's used as a slur now, just one word 'Karen' and everyone knows what it means and represents. My younger colleagues joke at work about it and say 'but you're not a typical 'Karen' . If I dare to have an opinion on something then of course I'm just living up to this ridiculous meme.
I agree with @chaosrabbitland, it's lazy, one word, job done. Very sad

@Livebythecoast

My name is Karen. I've said this before on another thread, one where a woman actually changed her name because of it..... My lovely mum (rip) gave me my name and loved it. It's upsetting it's used as a slur now, just one word 'Karen' and everyone knows what it means and represents. My younger colleagues joke at work about it and say 'but you're not a typical 'Karen' . If I dare to have an opinion on something then of course I'm just living up to this ridiculous meme. I agree with *@chaosrabbitland*, it's lazy, one word, job done. Very sad

That is horrible to have your name highjacked like that. Hope you can ignore the idiots.