Karen

[littlebilliie]

I am so sick of this term being used to belittle women. I definitely this this is misogynistic hate speech.

Middle aged women and older who had an opinion were always respected and listen to, now if a women of any age speaks out she is ridiculed.

I think we should call the Karen term out for what it is.

[OrlaRose7]

I don’t get the whole appropriating a popular woman’s name as a pejorative and thinking that it is ok. Karen is an odd choice too. Danish form of Katherine and the name of an ethnic group in Myanmar. I associate the name with some amazing and beautiful women like Karen Carpenter, Karen Gillan and supermodels like Karen Mulder and Karen Elson.

[SenseSpeaker]

Stop being a Karen and you won't get called a Karen, Karen.

[thinkingaboutLangCleg]

If you are using your perceived social status to make someone's (usually younger, less "educated", a different race) harder for very little reason you're a "karen". If you aren't, chill, it's not about you.

But it is. It’s women being told to shut up, and I’m not accepting your description of why they supposedly deserve it. I refuse to be pathetically grateful the insult is aimed at other women.

[Maireas]

@NiceGerbil

It's just a way for (mainly) men to insult women they don't approve of that isn't as blatant as the stuff they've always said.

Putting the boot into women who are middle aged+ and don't have the decency to try and be invisible has always been in fashion...

This. Absolutely.

[KrispyKremeDream]

I'm betting the word 'Karen' will be in the dictionary by this time next year.

[NotTerfNorCis]

I get the impression 'Karen' isn't used quite as much as it was. Too many people standing up and saying it's misogynist.

[NiceGerbil]

Tried to find Queenie drink episode. I may be a weak woman etc. Drink!

Couldn't find it :(

[NiceGerbil]

[PhiOmicron]

@KayKayWat

Sorry bit of a tangent...

This thread has been off-topic for a while.

I personally don't mind if NG wants to go on posting classic moments from Blackadder.

[KayKayWat]

Sorry bit of a tangent...

[KayKayWat]

@NiceGerbil

Kay please I don't get it.

You said this
'Right now it’s all about the white middle class women called Karen and how horrible it is for them, rather the the working class woman and WOC who were the original victims of said ‘Karens’. I know this view annoys some as there are a lot of women who are only used to being the victim and don’t like to examine their own privilege and behaviour.'

Then you said this
'Yes, the actual name Karen isn't particularly posh in the UK but the type of individual described definitely exists. '

Those two things totally contradict each other.

You can see that, right? Or not?

Yes, those posts are a bit contradictory. What I really meant wasn't so much that it was middle class women called Karen but more that it's MC women complaining about the whole Karen thing.

With the driving complaints I speculate that it's partly down to women feeling more powerless against men than other men do. So a couple of guys will often posture in an argument, sometimes becoming violent but usually just chest puffing and posturing. Women don't do this as they know they're not a physical threat to 99% of men. So they fight back in a different way.

Although on the other hand, I'd imagine it is potentially even more emasculating for some men in the instance that they have to back down (e.g. when facing a man twice their size) because men are still judged in this way even if not consciously. As an example, I'd imagine most men will feel a lot worse not reacting to another man insulting their partner than a women will in the same situation because the man is still seen as 'the protector' by many even if it is an incredibly old fashioned stereotype. If somebody says 'don't fancy yours' to a random bloke in the street and he doesn't at least say something back he will be seen as weak by many.

[PhiOmicron]

What is ever the point of reporting a staff member to the manager, ever, though? Honest question. If it's criminal behaviour (they steal your change or whatever) then you'd challenge it and perhaps involve the police, but in general, wouldn't you shrug it off?

The only time I remember feeling bothered by a staff member was in a charity shop, when one fella kept following me around asking personal questions. He clearly had learning difficulties, though, so it wouldn't have felt right to complain. So I didn't.

I'm not going for Martyr of the Year award, I just don't see the point in having a pop at someone working what can often be a pretty unpleasant job.

[Blibbyblobby]

@NiceGerbil

Who does most the of the shopping...

An angle missed there.

(Women is the answer. Interestingly I've seen the fact that women are the ones who do the most spending in shops cited as a female privilege... Ooh yay! Family shop! Don't forget grandpa's laxatives! Oh god they're out of the cheaper nappies that don't leak... Now where's that MN chicken it'll need to go a week...).

Yeah, considered that but it looks like the infographic is % of men vs % of women so having different total #s of men and women wouldn't affect the comparison. I couldn't get to the source report to be sure, but that's why I didn't mention it.

[NiceGerbil]

Who does most the of the shopping...

An angle missed there.

(Women is the answer. Interestingly I've seen the fact that women are the ones who do the most spending in shops cited as a female privilege... Ooh yay! Family shop! Don't forget grandpa's laxatives! Oh god they're out of the cheaper nappies that don't leak... Now where's that MN chicken it'll need to go a week...).

[Blibbyblobby]

Women lead the way in complaining about staff members

Which of course raises the interesting question of whether women are just bigger complainers or are actually getting worse service. We know there are many contexts where men get more respect and attention than women, would not be a huge leap if retail were one of them.

[Journeyofthedragons]

In retail men complain (to the business) slightly more then women, but they are likely to complain about out of stock items/long waiting times whereas women lead the way in complaining about staff members.

www.qudini.com/men-vs-women-complaints-about-poor-experience-within-retail-stores/

[KimikosNightmare]

Good analysis there.

I suppose it's plausible that female drivers are more likely to be middle class than not. Although given the situation here was complaining about aggressive driving, by definition the complainers have to be in the class of people who own or have access to a car, I can't see what relevance their social class is.

I'm perplexed and a bit disturbed that a haulage/ delivery company thinks there is any justification in breaking down the complaints about poor driving into those made by women and those made by men. Why? What data do they think can be extrapolated from that?

All I get from it is women take poor or aggressive driving more seriously than men.

[NiceGerbil]

On the example of women complaining more. 80% now although 99% I think it was earlier.

Just the one experience? And sounds like not in a direct public facing service type role.

I think that example has a lot of dynamics going on with it. Ones that each could fill s thread with arguing!

I do wonder though how that example relates to what a Karen is, by Kay's definition.

IE. A middle class privileged woman who enjoys belittling women who are.. working class/ in a service industry role and the MC woman is a customer.

Something like that.

How does Kay know the women complaining were middle class? How does it relate to the woman treating less wealthy women badly, if the complaints are about drivers mainly men?

I don't get it.

[KimikosNightmare]

Of course every statistic on fatal and serious traffic accidents will show men are around 3 times as likely as women to be the cause. It's hardly surprising women are more likely to complain about aggressive driving.

[KimikosNightmare]

For example, at my previous company they looked at the complaints log and worked out that around 80% of the people who complained about our drivers were women

Why would they do that?

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make. Is cutting in too early to the point of scaring other drivers irrelevant if it's done to a female driver.

[KimikosNightmare]

But the massive point here is that in the UK the name Karen is not and never has been a 'middle class' name

I would say Karen has no class connotations in Scotland. All of the Karens I know are middle class and one is from an aristocratic, military family listed in Debretts.

I'm puzzled by Kay's determination that it has any valid use.

[NiceGerbil]

Kay please I don't get it.

You said this
'Right now it’s all about the white middle class women called Karen and how horrible it is for them, rather the the working class woman and WOC who were the original victims of said ‘Karens’. I know this view annoys some as there are a lot of women who are only used to being the victim and don’t like to examine their own privilege and behaviour.'

Then you said this
'Yes, the actual name Karen isn't particularly posh in the UK but the type of individual described definitely exists. '

Those two things totally contradict each other.

You can see that, right? Or not?

[KayKayWat]

Yes, the actual name Karen isn't particularly posh in the UK but the type of individual described definitely exists. IME men can be pretty rude but are much less likely to formally complain.

For example, at my previous company they looked at the complaints log and worked out that around 80% of the people who complained about our drivers were women. And this wasn't about men shouting things out the window etc because all the wagons had cameras on the wing mirror which you could see the driver in (so they wouldn't be stupid enough to do this). Just cases of accidentally cutting in too close etc which is easier to do in a lorry than a car as it's hard to judge the distance. Men seemed to just beep the horn and shout something but women would call in and complain.

The other common complaint we had was car drivers being blocked in after parking in the loading bay/yellow box. So many woman used to call in furious that the driver wouldn't move the truck and had made them wait five minutes despite them being illegally parked and the driver having been halfway through unloading by the time they got back (so unable to just move the truck quickly as tail lift down etc).

My experience is definitely that women complain more for better or worse and I think this probably contributes somewhat to the stereotype, which has now become extremely exaggerated as most stereotypes are.

[NiceGerbil]

Oh as promised to pp here's a fine example of the beauty of 'git'

[NiceGerbil]

Where do you live/ work/ shop that you see this anyway?

Are you talking like. What level? Not an expert! Erm. The royal opera House? La gavroche? Um.

Or like. Local places where a steak is upwards of 25 quid?

Marks and Spencers food?

Seriously who are we talking about?!

Or like. Medium to very fancy corporate things?