Karen

[littlebilliie]

I am so sick of this term being used to belittle women. I definitely this this is misogynistic hate speech.

Middle aged women and older who had an opinion were always respected and listen to, now if a women of any age speaks out she is ridiculed.

I think we should call the Karen term out for what it is.

Shockingly lazy approach. So you're happy to label and perpetuate ageist and sexist sterotypes rather than recognise/evaluate/respond to individual actions? Your last sentance is one of the most blinkered views I've read on here

I think linguist was saying that people who use the word karen aren’t worth consideration

. I volunteer and have heard it used most by fourteen year old girls, always aimed at older women, teachers they aren't happy with, their own mothers, etc.

OK, but when have teenagers ever submitted their linguistic choices to adults for their approval?

They are not less likely to use the term if adults object to it. Quite the opposite.

I hate this term too. Surprised it is still in use and people haven’t seen how incredibly horrible it is yet. It seems to on make it acceptable to ridicule any women and in particular any middle age woman, for just “being”

@WhiskyXray

. I volunteer and have heard it used most by fourteen year old girls, always aimed at older women, teachers they aren't happy with, their own mothers, etc.

OK, but when have teenagers ever submitted their linguistic choices to adults for their approval?

They are not less likely to use the term if adults object to it. Quite the opposite.

Probably never idk.

I haven't said anything to the girls about it because it would interfere with what we're meant to be really doing.

But as we're discussing here who we've heard using the phrase and who they're using it about, those are the people I've mostly heard using it and those are the other people they seem to mostly be talking about.

I’m a teacher and have heard girls using ‘Karen’ as an insult. I have asked them what the male equivalent is, and of course they don’t have an answer. This has lead to a discussion about why there are words like this just to put women down. Some teenagers are very willing to rethink their language when they are shown an alternative viewpoint. Don’t write them off.

Yes social media has applied it to racists white women in the past hence the Central Park Karen stuff that trended on social media. However usually it’s just alliteration like Bbq Becky, Parking Lot Patty where a racist or unreasonable encounter is caught on video and shared and given a name like the Central Park Karen as a hash tag when it begins to trend on social media.

In regards to the hairstyle that’s the meme. The hairstyle, the asking to speak to the manager, the unreasonable requests and hassling employees it’s regarding a specific type of customer. Dare I say it here in the US it’s a pretty spot on depiction.
People are now incorrectly using it against women as a way to silence them which is horrible but it’s literally a meme. Similar to the Kyle meme which is based off another pretty accurate American stereotype.

Not good
www.irishtimes.com/news/world/ardern-implies-opposition-leader-is-a-karen-during-parliamentary-debate-1.4608758

Can’t stand the term- it’s a good example of sexist language creeping into popular discourse and becoming accepted. (It’s just a joke. What’s wrong with you if you get all offended?? It perfectly describes any woman whose opinion I dislike - etc).
I suppose as a PP said it gives you a quick way to filter out meaningless opinions (as with snowflake, sheep, ‘the woke brigade’) but the sexism should still be pointed out and resisted.

Excellent discussion with my class about someone defining an assertive woman as a Karen in a piece of literature. "Who is Karen?" "Who benefits, and in what way, from 'calling out' a Karen?" Didn't last long, they absolutely got it.
My own DD not so much. Well, she does, but enjoys trying to get a rise out of me.

Oh yeah, when Ardern did it, my toes curled (she is a middle-aged politician using slang in a pre-written speech to sound down with the kids this will never not be ridiculous). She only did it once, though even the fawning media picked up on the dissonance there, as its use ran counter to her usual laboured "Be kind" schtick.

I have to say, apart from "Karen," I also find it convenient to have plainly sexist words like bitch, crone, harridan and fuckpig in the language. As PP arguing against me have said, you can make certain judgements about the speaker and their mindset / background from their use of all and any language. And in fiction, these words are invaluable for àuthenticity. If someone were writing a short story about an English teenager, they might have her call her preachy teacher a Karen (based off this thread-- I don't spend much time with teenagers currently).

The real dissonance for me would lie in someone who held both that,

1. "Karen" as a pejorative is misogynist and should be banned as hate speech, and
2. TRAs are wrong to have Atwood and other women writers they deem unacceptable cancelled and withdrawn from libraries.

You have to pick a lane.

The acid test is, does the same apply to men? No, there is no similar term for white men who use their privilege to belittle or bully others in a weaker position, even though there are plenty of men who assert their status at the expense of others less powerful. Yet a name like "Kevin" or "Dave" for example is not imbued with a similar derogatory meaning and it feels unlikely that it would ever be so. Conclusion, misogynistic slur used to silence women.

I can't stand it when other women are called handmaidens, up there with Karen for trying to silence women in my book.

Who benefits, and in what way, from 'calling out' a Karen?

This is a very useful question to ask, for this issue and many others. Who benefits and how. Get the answer to that and you can easily demonstrate why the issue is an issue.

*The real dissonance for me would lie in someone who held both that,

1. "Karen" as a pejorative is misogynist and should be banned as hate speech, and
2. TRAs are wrong to have Atwood and other women writers they deem unacceptable cancelled and withdrawn from libraries*

Where is the dissonance?

Example (a) is a pejorative term being applied either to one targeted individual, who will usually have little scope for comeback,i or more widely to a specific group as a means of belittling and othering that group. It might not be quite as egregious as say racial slurs but it's in the same category.

(b) is a book in a library. Borrow it/don't borrow. Present a case arguing against its ideas if you like- other readers are still free to disagree.

Because it's you telling other people what to say, in both cases. I would apply your book approach to the spoken insults which get on my personal wick: use them, don't use them. Present a case against using Karen if you like-- other speakers are free to disagree.

I don't see any reason in principle to separate the spoken and written word. True, the written is likely easier to police, though even in Nazi Germany, dissidents found ways to put pen to paper (e.g. the Diary of the Man in Despair). At a visceral level, whether it is an authoritarian government banning texts, or some numpty policeman convinced that "adult human female" is hate speech, or you trying to police young people calling the older women in their lives (i.e. authority figures in a position of power over them) "Karen"-- well, at a visceral level I find it all equally contemptible.

Also- little scope for comeback, seriously? But according to this thread, "Karen" is levelled at "confident women." If that's true, then remonstrate, put them in their places. They're free to nod and change their minds, or call you Karen with extra relish, of course.

You're happy then with P or N* or C* to stand?

What is c**?

I am not going to tell other people what words to use. It doesn't matter if I am "happy" with their words or not.

I live in the USA and have never heard or read of anyone being called Ken, I come across the term male Karen occasionally.

I've pulled my dc up for using Karen and much as they love to prove me wrong they haven't been able to identify any male equivalent when challenged to do so.

They also don't use it to mean a racist person, just any woman older than then who is expressing a view they disagree with.

@NiceGerbil

Chad is not a name here it's a drawing of someone looking over a wall saying 'wot no' something in the 80s.

Ken? I know a few Kens. All in their 70s/80s....

This Chad or Mr Chad dates to slightly pre WW2, and during the war was famous for having things like “Wot no bananas?” Etc.

But anyway, quite agree OP.

I do find it interesting the way white people co-opt black slang and use it / change it. I am seeing a lot of white people use "bougie" now and again the negative/racial connotations have been lost along the way.

I think it's just a name for women being incredibly unreasonable isn't it?

Well, yes it is.

Unfortunately to some people, a woman disagreeing in any way, no matter how politely, with something they believe, say or do, or indeed a woman simply existing within their sphere of notice without having any immediate value to them, is a woman being unreasonable.

To paraphrase Rebecca West : “I myself have never been able to find out precisely what a Karen is: I only know that people call me a Karen whenever I express sentiments that differentiate me from a doormat.”

To be fair the term 'straight white male' holds derogatory undertones nowadays and covers a much wider demographic than people called Karen.

I do feel the whole Karen debate has become somewhat sidetracked from the behaviour of said women to the actual term itself. I do feel sorry for women called Karen, but the belittling of working class women and WOC is even worse IMO and will still endure long after the Karen meme has been replaced by the next derogatory term for female bullies.

I think it was made up by customer service people/retail to stop women complaining, lest they get tarred with the ‘Karen’ brush (I’m half joking)

Funny how there isn’t a ‘name’ for men who complain.

I also think people have a big tendency to overexaggerate nowadays. So any slightly disagreeable woman is called a 'Karen', much like how any man who expresses concerns about the toxic elements of modern feminism is cslled an 'MRA', and right wing/capitalist individuals are called 'fascists' by certain activist types.