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Feminism: chat

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Female students are being injected now with date rape drugs in nightclubs

292 replies

GoWalkabout · 17/10/2021 11:09

I won't post the Facebook post I saw because its on a forum but apparently there have been several reported incidents of students in Exeter nightclubs being injected in the back (not by people they are with) while out. The newspapers really need to get on this story and nightclubs who are reportedly batting back complaints saying that the women are just drunk need to deal with this criminality on their premises. We are not prey. Angry

OP posts:
hoodathunkit · 22/10/2021 10:24

There is a fairly detailed description from various authoratitive experts in this Vice article as to exactly why widespread spiking via injections is highly unlikely

www.vice.com/en/article/wxdenq/heres-what-we-know-about-reports-of-women-being-spiked-with-needles-in-uk-clubs

CharlieParley · 22/10/2021 12:33

[quote hoodathunkit]There is a fairly detailed description from various authoratitive experts in this Vice article as to exactly why widespread spiking via injections is highly unlikely

www.vice.com/en/article/wxdenq/heres-what-we-know-about-reports-of-women-being-spiked-with-needles-in-uk-clubs[/quote]
Thanks for the link. So after talking to police forces around the country, there are four cases being investigated where someone claimed to have felt drugged after feeling a scratch or jab.

Police Scotland (who get incident reports from the whole country) confirmed they are investigating one report, Nottinghamshire Police are investigating three reports. That's also the police force where a man was arrested for possession of Class A or B drugs with intent to use them on others. There is no claim in that report that this relates to spiking by injection (or even spiking).

That's the facts as confirmed by police forces to date.

So yes, there are women who believe they were drugged and that this happened by injection. So no, there is no evidence that an injection is how they got drugged.

Furthermore, there are no toxicology reports confirming whether they were drugged and how, but there are a small number of drugs that can be used in this way. However, as hoodathunkit points out, it is extremely difficult for them to be administered in this way. And here's a quote from the article with experts you can look up giving their opinion on the injection claims:

David Caldicott, an emergency medicine consultant and founder of drug testing project WEDINOS, said: “There are a couple of things that are disconcerting about this story. The technical and medical knowledge required to perform this would make this deeply improbable. It is at the level of a state sponsored actor incapacitating a dissident, like the Novichok incident. The idea that a clubber would do this to a fellow clubber seems highly unlikely to me.

“It’s really hard to stick a needle in someone without them noticing, especially if you have to keep the needle in there for long enough, maybe 20 seconds, to inject enough drugs to cause this. If you were malicious there would be half a dozen much easier other ways to spike someone.”

Caldicott added: “It’s very important that when a young person believes something has happened that has deprived them of their cognitive liberty to take them seriously and investigate it to the hilt. This has not been adequately investigated.

“It’s entirely possible that this is some stupid fad of sticking needles into people, but the association between sticking needles into people and people being intoxicated and collapsing seems far-fetched at the moment, it’s very difficult to explain.”

A critical care nurse who is familiar with intramuscular injecting and wished to remain anonymous fearing a backlash also shared that the likelihood of being able to administer a jab of ketamine, benzo or haloperidol (probably the only drugs likely candidates for this) is virtually zero because the needle size you need to quickly administer the liquid the drug is suspended in is a size that would hurt a lot when administered.

Helena Conibear, CEO of the Alcohol Education Trust, who had not heard about spiking injections before last week, said that the social media claims and reports needed to be scrutinised. “What we’ve found over 11 years of our existence is that there is a rise in reporting to us [about drink spiking] during freshers’ week in the autumn. Everyone presumes it takes place in bars and clubs, but half is at private parties and unregulated spaces because there’s less likelihood to have CCTV.”

Here's what I believe: there are women who felt unduly intoxicated given what they know they actually drank. They believe they were drugged. They believe this happened via an injection.

The women were then taken to a safe place by friends or family, some to hospital.

And that's the only thing we can know for sure.

And yes, I was told about this too (one of my kids is a student) but every single story I've been told about IRL amounted to no more than hearsay even for the person who told me. And going by the fantastic stories I've been told by my kids as absolute truth in the past, which turned out to be urban myths, I am sceptical that there is an epidemic of spiking by injection. I do believe however that women and men are drugged by spiking in clubs and elsewhere. Either by drugs or alcohol. But that's a well evidenced problem.

IslaPineappple · 22/10/2021 14:03

@CharlieParley that's the best comment on here. I totally agree.

hoodathunkit · 22/10/2021 14:33

Thanks for the breakdown of the salient issues Charlie

I have a provisional hypothesis to add to this

It relates to the fact that we are the subject of various misinformation campaigns that aim to incite discord and strife in the UK (and other territories also).

The excellent New York Times video on Operation Infektion evidences this - I will not link to it again but it is easily found on youtube

it is generally very difficult to prove that such campaigns are happening as they happen.

Defecting intelligence agents confessed to Operation Infektion years after it happened. Had they not we may not now know about it.

Internet evidence trails lead to the New York Times demonstrating that some BLM and alt-right groups had been provoked and inticed to confront IRL each other by Russian disinformation campaigns.

When seemingly irrational and confusing things are happening it may be useful to use inductive reasoning and positivism to try to understand what might be happening. This is important as one thing that usually goes out of the window during collective panics is the capacity for rational, skeptical thinking. Staying thinking is extremely important.

Thus, IME, it is always important to examine the wider context.

The wider context in the reports of spikings by injection are as follows:

  1. The horrific reality that spiking drinks (and possibly by other means not including injection) is extremely common.
  1. Sexual violations resulting from spikings are extremely common
  1. How realistic are the spiking via injection allegations? If the Vice article is accurate (it appears to be) then the allegations are not realistic at all. The allegations of "crybaby rings" add an additional layer of implausability IMO - I will write more on the crybaby ring issue later
  1. We need to look at other disinformation campaigns to see whether the reports of injection spikings dovetail or resonate with existing campaigns. For example, we are in the midst of a terrible campaign of misinformation about vaccines that is breaking up families and friendships and costing lives. Does this report of multiple, violating injections resonate with anti-vaxx campaigns? Of course it does. With bells on. Injections are evil M'Kay
  1. Do the allegations pose a threat to UK businesses and economic growth? Important to ask as this is one of the things that disinformation campaigns aim to do. As a result of the allegations women are boycotting nighclubs at a time when the nightime economy is on its knees. Also further demands are being made on security staff at the same time as the UK press is reporting that nighclubs may be forced to close due to a serious shortage of security staff. This is not proof of a misinformation campaign, however if it is not a misinformation campaign, someone has missed an opportunity for one as it has the same effect as a misinformation campaign.
  1. Misinformation / active measures campains aim to waste police time, leading them on wild goose chases and thus leaving them with insufficient resources to even notice serious crimes, let alone investigate them. We have seen this happen with some of the "hurty words", stickers and "non-crime hate incidents" of recent and current times.
  1. Do the reports incite discord between different groups or "tribes"? Well they appear to cause mistrust and division between men and women. The creation of divisions beetwen the sexes is a very common theme of misinformation campaigns, but is not unique. Young vs old, rich vs poor, black vs white, you name it, if there are "cracks" there then troll farms and disinformation campaigs will do their best to rub salt in the wounds and incite everyone to hate and fight one another.

IMO we need to think very carefully about how to address the issue of spiking, whether it occurs in nightclubs or, as the Vice article pointed out, in more domestic settings.

The reality of spiking via drinks and other means (not including injections) and the resulting violations needs to be thought about and addressed properly.

Using the reality of spiking to fuel a misinformation campaign is exactly the kind of cynical MO one would expect from a disinformation campaign. As the Operation Infektion video states these campaigns are always based on an exaggeration of a core truth.

Are we experiencing a disinformation campaign in relation to these claims?

Of course I do not know, however we should stay thinking

RussianSpy101 · 22/10/2021 14:41

@Limefizz did this happen in Viper Rooms?

Lockheart · 22/10/2021 15:29

A salutary lesson in why news reports don't necessarily mean what you want them to mean:

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-nottinghamshire-59011522

Two men have been arrested today in connection with spiking in Nottingham.

The one who was arrested earlier this week and which caused such excitement on this thread with several posters holding the story up as proof is also mentioned in the above article. Please note the line: "the suspected offence doesn't involve a needle".

Journeyofthedragons · 22/10/2021 15:29

Do the reports incite discord between different groups or "tribes"? Well they appear to cause mistrust and division between men and women. The creation of divisions beetwen the sexes is a very common theme of misinformation campaigns

You could be talking about Mumsnet here.

DdraigGoch · 22/10/2021 19:58

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/10/22/three-women-feared-possible-needle-attack-had-no-drugs-systems/

Three toxicology reports in Exeter have come back clear (they weren't spiked by any form of drug, though presumably someone adding vodka to their drinks can't be ruled out). The fourth report is "outside the forensic window" (any biomedical scientists wish to explain what that means?) and further blood tests to be done.

HirplesWithHaggis · 22/10/2021 20:42

I think "outside the forensic window" probably means that if a particular drug had been injected at the time specified, it would have vanished from the body by the time tests were made - so the absence of said drug in tests doesn't mean it wasn't used.

DdraigGoch · 22/10/2021 20:57

@HirplesWithHaggis

I think "outside the forensic window" probably means that if a particular drug had been injected at the time specified, it would have vanished from the body by the time tests were made - so the absence of said drug in tests doesn't mean it wasn't used.
I considered that, but why further tests if that is the case?
HirplesWithHaggis · 22/10/2021 21:15

I have absolutely no idea.

ChattyLion · 23/10/2021 09:25

I might have said this upthread so apologies if I’m repeating but the proposals for nightclubs to pat down or scan people for needles or whatever, don’t really address the problem. There needs to be massively heavier criminal penalties introduced for all the whole family of date rape drugs because we know they are used to incapacitate and rape.
Women and girls at house parties, pubs, festivals or in other situations are not going to be safe because night clubs have introduced searches or scanners.
The government needs to tackle the problem at source by reclassifying drugs specifically because of their use in rape and sexual attack. The government also needs to force the police to get interested in policing this. That would actually send a message that it’s unacceptable to use these drugs on others, not just that it’s not OK
to do so in a premises that can be threatened with loss of its licence. Society says no to this. Forcing individual night club management to take steps is just tinkering round the edges.

DdraigGoch · 23/10/2021 21:06

There needs to be massively heavier criminal penalties introduced for...
You could add a variety of different crimes to the end of this sentence and it would be no less true. On another thread someone had been sentenced to a minimum of eight years for killing his wife with a shotgun. Yet in the US, someone who mowed down a mother and baby at 100+mph got eighteen years. There are many aspects of the US justice system I disagree with but the length of the sentences is not one of them.

ErrolTheDragon · 24/10/2021 11:17

There's a column in the Sunday Times today relating to this issue

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/gillian-bowditch-turning-point-rancid-tide-misogyny-needles-nightclubs-hnh30vhm6?shareToken=07eef5acc5b683858c500fde864e71da

hoodathunkit · 26/10/2021 19:43

Thank you for posting a link to that very odd piece in the Times Errol.

I find it to be a very strange article, full of incredible claims.

The author, Gillian Bowditch, was the first person to report the alleged spiking by injections in the MSM. This might explain why she has written such a bizarre followup piece.

Does anyone have a share token for her previous, original article? Here it is behind a paywall

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/a-girls-night-out-should-not-need-an-escape-plan-q7pvsnn80

In the followup article Errol linked in her above post to Bowditch states,

"When I wrote about the reported spiking by injection of three young women in Edinburgh nightclubs for last Sunday’s newspaper, hardly anything had been reported. My information came from the social media pages of my daughters’ friends and acquaintances as they warned each other to be vigilant.

I appreciate that Bowditch is not an investigative journalist but surely even a columnist should be aware of urban myths and the fact that social media reports are not the same as actual factual reporting?

Surely any professional journalist should conduct due diligence and consult with experts prior to starting a media frenzy about highly improbable violations that have long been debunked as urban myths?

If her daughters’ friends were claiming that someone they knew’s little boy had been mutilated in a toilet she would at least google or check Snopes to get some insight into whether these reports were part of a long history of myths and hoaxes prior to penning a column in the Times about it?

It would appear, from Bowditch’s latest piece that not only is she reluctant to conduct due diligence even in the wake of multiple debunking by experts, she has battened down the hatches and is now making further highly dubious claims.

She says,

Despite the raw honesty of the women’s stories, there was an understandable degree of uncertainty among my peers. It’s not particularly easy to inject somebody with toxins. (It’s not particularly difficult either.)

The fact is that it is extremely difficult to inject someone with toxins covertly as various experts have opined.

It is so difficult that it is the kind of attack that is conducted by state actors against their enemies.

I do not understand how or why Bowditch is making assertions contrary to those of experts in the field without backing up her argument with assertions from her own, alternative experts. Is this not how it is usually done?

Describing the complainants as possessing “raw honesty” is I think disingenuous. Nobody is questioning the honesty of the complainants.

All the reporting I have seen that has been rational / skeptical about the alleged injection spikings have not made any accusations of dishonesty about any of the women concerned. All reports have validated concerns about spiking but been skeptical about the injection element of the accounts.

Further down in the article Bowditch says, "The National Police Chiefs’ Council revealed there had been 140 confirmed reports of drink spiking and 24 of spiking by injection during September and October. Most of the victims have been young women.”

This is a misrepresentation of the NPCC's statement which was, according to ITV, that

"there have been 198 confirmed reports of drink spiking in September and October, in addition to 24 reports of some form of injection. "

Bowditch's piece implies that both the drink spikings and the injections were confirmed, when this is not the case.

Then, further down in the article, there is this claim absolutely bizarre claim from Bowditch

Last week there was also a report that a woman in Manchester, who was injected, was passed a note that read “welcome to the HIV club”. No HIV cases have been reported. But the fear is real, and fear is the real weapon here.

I am immensely curious as to where Bowditch read about this so called “report”. Did she also harvest it from social media?

Of course had she conducted due diligence she would have discovered that she was reporting an urban myth almost as notorious and widespread as the mutilated boy myth.

evidential link
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pin_prick_attack

also see

www.snopes.com/fact-check/hiv-infected-needle-attacks/

Bowditch's twitter account includes the tag live without fear, with is ironic given her tendency for uncorroborated reporting.

twitter.com/gillianbowditch

Bowditch says in her article “ But the fear is real, and fear is the real weapon here.

I think that Bowditch may be correct about fear being a weapon. It seems to me that the questions we need to ask are;, "Who is weilding the weapon on this occasion?" and "why are they weilding it?'

hoodathunkit · 26/10/2021 19:47

link to a news report of the The National Police Chiefs’ Council's statement about spiking , confirmed (drink spikings) and reported yet unconfirmed (injections)

www.itv.com/news/2021-10-23/nearly-200-drink-spiking-incidents-reported-to-police-in-two-months

hoodathunkit · 26/10/2021 19:53

If anyone has a subscription to the Times and can help me to access another article by Bowditch I would very much appreciate it.

This is the one I'm after, if it can be archived that would be great - twisty little rabbit holes and all that

Bowditch, G. (2005) ‘A chilling wake-up call to the triumph of evil’, The Times (Scotland) 11 October

hoodathunkit · 26/10/2021 20:09

One of the reasons journalists really have to conduct due diligence when reporting highly improbable claims is that such claims can create collective anxieties that result in mass psychogenic illness

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_psychogenic_illness

also fascinating

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mass_hysteria_cases

Of course one of the really appalling things about moral panics, the delusions of crowds and mass psychogenic illness is that the whirlwind of frenzied reports that are patt and parcel of the phenomena obscure real violations and crimes.

Thus we can have an awful situation in which real spikings (which we all recognise are a very serious problem that has not been adequately addressed) are neglected and police resources are diverted into dealing with false reports of injections.

This is a similar situation to that of the frenzied social media reports re Qanon, Pizzagate and SRA, that cause social disorder, riots and immense problems for the police while obscurng very real abuses by cults, and drain resources from proper investigations into SCA/CSA, VAWG and abuses against vulnerable people generally.

hoodathunkit · 26/10/2021 20:11

So, er, check sources, provide evidence to back up claims, do not misrepresent official police or other reports and stay thinking

That's my 2p worth anyway

hoodathunkit · 26/10/2021 20:13

Highly relevant thread here about mass psychogenic illness

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3664470-The-mystery-of-screaming-schoolgirls-in-Malaysia

Titsywoo · 26/10/2021 20:14

DH was talking to a friend who works in a bar recently and he has colleagues that have been approached by men offering to pay them to slip drugs into womens drinks. So looking after your drink will not be enough if you are unlucky enough to be targetted. Very very disturbing and I am thankful that my older teen isn't into going out to pubs and bars.

SommerTen · 26/10/2021 20:53

From what I've heard from the Police in my town (South Coast uni town popular with hen / stag parties) women here are most at risk from meeting a man down for the weekend, going back to with him to his hotel room & finding that his mates are there waiting for her.

It happens a lot & it's usually difficult / impossible to get any prosecutions in that situation as these horrible men know.

Also lots of women here do try walking home alone in the early hours or walk through the Gardens at night and get attacked.

I think women at the local uni & arts uni should be warned to stick together on nights out, not to go back to strange men's hotel rooms unless they're prepared for what might happen, to save money for a taxi.
And boring as it is to calm down on the alcohol / drugs because it does obviously impair judgment, or at least have one friend who's a bit more sober.

Of course in an ideal world men wouldn't be rapists & we wouldn't have to watch out but it's not.

As for random men injecting young women, to me it sounds a bit odd.
I had a uni friend who told everyone a man had forcibly put a 'tab of ecstasy' in her mouth.
She turned out to be a fantasist over lots of things so who knows. I've never heard of it happening to anyone else I know.

MargaritaPie · 26/10/2021 23:35

I would also take it with a pinch of salt. Have a look at this:

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17251610/

"Conclusions: Most patients allegedly having had a spiked drink test negative for drugs of misuse. The symptoms are more likely to be a result of excess alcohol."

NotMyCat · 27/10/2021 08:14

Seems to have been a few reported locally to me
https://www.lep.co.uk/news/crime/preston-woman-taken-to-ae-after-being-spiked-by-injection-in-switch-nightclub-3431953

Witchcraftandhokum · 27/10/2021 08:21

I'm a mum, a teacher, a Tropic Ambassador.. just a normal person.. with no reason to make up such a thing!

Funniest thing I read in a while!

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