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The mystery of screaming schoolgirls in Malaysia

(112 Posts)
ByGrabtharsHammarWhatASaving Tue 13-Aug-19 13:07:04

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-48850490

Very interesting article on mass hysteria in Malaysia. Also interesting to see how the problem persists and worsens when the professed cause for the outbreak (like seeing an evil spirit) is affirmed and treated as fact (by performing cleansing rituals), rather than the people involved being encouraged to understand their experiences in the context of reality. Not surprisingly the article points out that this is a phenomenon almost exclusively affecting young girls, that it produces real physical symptoms, that it spreads quickly in places like schools, and that it is most noticeable in countries that have rigid gender roles which limit and oppress women.

What's also fascinating is that the author describes this phenomenon in places like Malaysia with a tone of pity, as if they are a backwards country and nothing like this could possibly happen in our enlightened Western society where science is everything. The TRAs always make out that a belief in biological sex is a form of colonial white supremacy and that anyone questioning gender must be a racist, but honestly could anything be more racist than looking at a country like Malaysia and saying "wow, look at those superstitious people believing that 100s of school girls are really possessed by Jinn, it's obviously mass hysteria caused by a stifling sexist conservative society" while simultaneously believing that the 1000s of school girls suddenly identifying as boys in peer clusters over here are really literally boys (even though that's impossible) and it's definitely not mass hysteria in response to our stifling sexist culture. Obviously only them forriners are susceptible to such delusions, while us Westeners are so progressive and enlightened that anything obviously bonkers happening here must in fact be based solidly in reality.

In addition to all that, the fact that these girls are being subjected to "cures" by faith healers and witch doctors also merits discussion. I've met several women during my time in places like Africa and South America who were taken to witch doctors to be "cured" of various things and it almost always included some form of sexual abuse. One woman said that when she had malaria a group of male faith healers were invited over to tie her up, strip her naked, blindfold her, and take it in turns to spit on her. Even if that isn't the case here the description of the girl being "treated" as "thrashing about wildly on the floor and screaming before being restrained by two men" is really upsetting.

FormerMediocreMale Tue 13-Aug-19 13:12:19

Interesting comparrison.

The patriarchy and mysoginy is definitely there in both. The social contagion in both. The "treatments" horrific in both...

LumpySpacedPrincess Tue 13-Aug-19 13:14:17

....same with breast ironing and breast binding. One is mentioned in safeguarding training given in schools the other is mentioned in school packs with advice on how to support the binder...

Cognitive dissonance and bloody racist.

ByGrabtharsHammarWhatASaving Tue 13-Aug-19 13:26:15

The idea that if you give 1 thing 2 different names it becomes 2 separate things, and that the one done by POC is bad whilst the one done by white people is good, is a strong theme in TRA arguments.

LumpySpacedPrincess Tue 13-Aug-19 14:10:46

Yes..

We are going to allow men to undress next to women and girls,

We are making our changing rooms more inclusive.

Vasya Tue 13-Aug-19 14:58:31

* Obviously only them forriners are susceptible to such delusions, while us Westeners are so progressive and enlightened that anything obviously bonkers happening here must in fact be based solidly in reality.*

There are phenomena in western society which are directly comparable to what you describe in Malaysia - folie à deux, the dancing plague of 1518, the North Carolina Seizures, LeRoy Tourette's.

Believing in trans rights / that trans women are women and trans men are men is not mass hysteria. I appreciate that you're trying to draw a parallel which suggests that anyone who believes these things is delusional / susceptible to peer pressure / suffering from some kind of cognitive malfunction, but from a psychological perspective they aren't remotely comparable and you're stretching the analogy too thin.

It's fine if you're looking for a colourful metaphor for your views, but it's incredibly untruthful to suggest there's any kind of scientific legitimacy to what you say.

DejaVulva Tue 13-Aug-19 15:20:40

Believing in trans rights / that trans women are women and trans men are men is not mass hysteria.

Two points to make here, please:

1 "trans women are women and trans men are men " this is a false statement since no human can ever change sex.

2 "Believing in trans rights" please can you identify those rights?

Vasya Tue 13-Aug-19 15:27:07

1 "trans women are women and trans men are men " this is a false statement since no human can ever change* sex.*

Trans people have not changed sex. Gender and sex aren't the same thing and don't always correspond. In my view (which I know you don't share), the definition of 'woman' or 'man' includes people who identify with that gender, even if their biological sex doesn't correspond.

I know some are of the view that gender is irrelevant and only sex matters. I am not particularly interested in that view, and I have no desire to hear any attempts to justify it.

2 "Believing in trans rights" please can you identify those rights?

Trans people have a whole suite of rights but I suppose for the purposes of this thread the one that is likely to be most contentious is 'the right to be recognised as the gender they know themselves to be, regardless of whether their biological sex corresponds'.

I know this is not a right some people want to acknowledge. I'm not really interested in the reasons why anyone would feel that way.

LiveInAHidingPlace Tue 13-Aug-19 15:31:15

As my aunt likes to say about anyone from outside the west: "they're just more spiritual there" whilst believing in 700 types of nonsense herself.

DejaVulva Tue 13-Aug-19 15:33:58

he definition of 'woman' or 'man' includes people who identify with that gender, even if their biological sex doesn't correspond.

Please can you provide your definition of gender and the difference between it and sex?

I know some are of the view that gender is irrelevant and only sex matters. I am not particularly interested in that view, and I have no desire to hear any attempts to justify it

Are you saying that your perspective is the only one and that there can be "no debate" about it?

DejaVulva Tue 13-Aug-19 15:37:05

* 'the right to be recognised as the gender they know themselves to be, regardless of whether their biological sex corresponds'. *

Perhaps you live outside of the UK? There is such "right" for anyone here and neither is such a right written into any Human Rights law internationally [see European Human Rights; see Universal Declaration of Human Rights.]

Perhaps it is a "right" that only pertains in a very limited area of the world? Are you able to say in which jurisdiction such a "right" exists?

Vasya Tue 13-Aug-19 15:45:02

* *Perhaps it is a "right" that only pertains in a very limited area of the world? Are you able to say in which jurisdiction such a "right" exists?

We aren't discussing legal rights (though I expect one day this will be one). We are discussing the rights some people trans people have. I believe they have the abovementioned right regardless of its enshrinement (or lack thereof) in law.

Are you saying that your perspective is the only one and that there can be "no debate" about it?

No. I'm saying I don't want to debate it with you. Feel free to have whatever debate you like with anyone you can find who is willing to participate.

DejaVulva Tue 13-Aug-19 15:46:47

And, Vasya in UK law the two sexes are defined thus:

man: a male of any age

woman: a female of any age

and law here recognises that sex can never change.

Vasya Tue 13-Aug-19 15:49:06

* and law here recognises that sex can* never* change.*

Trans people don't change sex, so this is not relevant.

PancakeAndKeith Tue 13-Aug-19 15:50:38

I don’t think it correlates to trans as a whole but certainly to ROGD.

galaxybrain Tue 13-Aug-19 15:54:48

The definition of 'woman' or 'man' includes people who identify with that gender, even if their biological sex doesn't correspond.

So which group do women without a gender fall into?

Lazydaisies Tue 13-Aug-19 15:58:53

I see the parallel you are speaking of OP, the one of social contagion having a significant impact on rapid onset gender dysphoria in young girls/women. I suspect you are absolutely right that oppressive toxic femininity has a significant role to play in the significant rise ROGD as a phenomenon and yes that could very well fall under a similar psychological process as mass hysteria among believers.

DejaVulva Tue 13-Aug-19 16:10:12

I don’t think it correlates to trans as a whole but certainly to ROGD.

Yes, and this is an interesting analysis of all the different forms of GD:

4thwavenow.com/2017/12/07/gender-dysphoria-is-not-one-thing/

Michelleoftheresistance Tue 13-Aug-19 16:16:36

The TRAs always make out that a belief in biological sex is a form of colonial white supremacy

While colonising women's spaces and language in a manner that would make General Custer proud.

It's pure colonialism, right down to separating children from parents to teach them 'better' and 'more progressive' culture (rightthink) and an expressed desire to remove and eliminate those old members of the culture who resist (gulags).

It's a frequent aspect of TRA culture, that they use words that push buttons while not understanding what they mean or of the cognitive dissonance and sheer hypocrisy of holding these conflicting positions. (Colonialism is bad UNLESS it's us doing it) Which is a classic piece of pathology from certain types of personality disorder and social dysfunction: that giving conflicting facts and opinions doesn't matter and isn't seen by the person as relevant since everything said serves the emotional agenda of getting what is wanted.

placemats Tue 13-Aug-19 16:27:35

I remember the mass hysteria in Ireland about the moving and weeping statues at a time when Ireland was still very much a Catholic country. Ireland is one of those countries that has passed the GRA along with Malta, another Catholic country.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moving_statues

Incidentally, Malta has a ban on abortion except to save the mother's life, the only EU Country to have this ban apart from the UK which has the same ban in Northern Ireland but not in Wales, England or Scotland (the UK is still in the EU). Ireland no longer has a ban on abortion.

DejaVulva Tue 13-Aug-19 16:30:43

Trans people don't change sex, so this is not relevant.

So, how can a man who "transitions" become a woman, when women refers to the sex of one type of human; and how can a woman become a man, when man refers to the sex of the other type of human?

Sex is about gametes. Females [the adult human form of which is labelled women] supplies the large gamete; males [the adult human form of which is labelled men] supplies the small gamete.

Goosefoot Tue 13-Aug-19 16:36:08

Believing in trans rights / that trans women are women and trans men are men is not mass hysteria.

It maps on quite closely to the phenomena of suddenly claiming to be the opposite sex in teen girls, and other similar things which seem to affect that group in particular as well, which I think is what was being pointed out.

The girls are interested in changing their bodies, secondary and even primary sexual characteristics, not just their gender presentation, so I take claims about gender and sex being separate with a rather large grain of salt.

Lazydaisies Tue 13-Aug-19 16:37:01

Trans people don't change sex, so this is not relevant

Yes I completely agree with this statement. Transwomen do not become women when they transition because that would involve changing sex, which as you quite rightly say is not possible.

DejaVulva Tue 13-Aug-19 16:40:25

The girls are interested in changing their bodies, secondary and even primary sexual characteristics, not just their gender presentation, so I take claims about gender and sex being separate with a rather large grain of salt.

Those girls cannot change their primary or secondary sex characteristics .. they can only have some of them removed. What can never be removed are the chromosomes.

Goosefoot Tue 13-Aug-19 16:42:42

DejaVulva

Well, to some extent, they can remove or suppress some, and gain others.

But the point is that they are trying to change their sexed bodies, and so to say that it's not about that is not accurate.

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