Wayne couzens pleads guilty to the murder of Sarah Everard

[MotionActivatedDog]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-57774597

[sashh]

Yeah- but this was for the police….

The police, one of the few jobs where you interact with vulnerable people but do not need a DBS.

My brother was in the police and was quite narked that he had to undergo a DBS check to run a cycling proficiency course.

I was shocked he hadn't needed on to join the police.

[VikingVolva]

The 2015 case really worries me (if it was Couzens of course - no action then, and no prosecution now, but the way the police have brought the incident to light now can surely only mean there is no doubt).

Because it really doesn't sound like a case of priorities - will take a few days to start investigations (which is what may have happened in the March 2021 incident) - the timelines are wrong.

And Cressida Dick said that 12 officers have been referred to ICPO - how many of them were icw this incident? Will we ever find out. Because if this was deliberate cover up by fellow officers, then it's as serious as it gets. If they were naive and believed some taradiddle from Couzens, they are still culpable.

But would it have stopped the process of making him a murderer?

There's no way of knowing.

Official reporting at the time of his guilty plea said he had offered no information about why he did any of it, so we're all still in the dark.

Changing the course of events in 2015 would have saved Sarah.

But it doesn't mean that he would not have offended in some other place or at some other time. Being caught isn't the same as stopping an offender on an escalating path from offending again. It just changes the timeline a bit.

And in this case would have removed him from the police, but as we don't know that he used any police resources in the kidnapping, that in itself does not make women safer

(Sentencing hearing set for September, so we may well get further information then about the kidnap and murder of Sarah Everard)

[VikingVolva]

DBS isn't required for the police because that is covered in their own vetting - if you look down at the bit about 'common reasons for failing' you'll see they check against all interactions with the police. This is more comprehensive than a DBS . (But could still be defeated by false details to a level strong enough to pass the 'family' checks)

www.joiningthepolice.co.uk/how-to-apply/whats-involved-in-the-vetting-process

So it's likely that Couzens had not come to police attention before he joined (and his elder brother was in the police too).

[PearPickingPorky]

But it doesn't mean that he would not have offended in some other place or at some other time. Being caught isn't the same as stopping an offender on an escalating path from offending again. It just changes the timeline a bit.

And in this case would have removed him from the police, but as we don't know that he used any police resources in the kidnapping, that in itself does not make women safer

I think we know he is both a serial offender and an escalating one, and we also know that he is not an opportunistic offender - he plans attacks in advance, as we know from the hiring a car in advance and lining the boot with protective sheet. It's just the victim that isn't predetermined, other than being female.

So we know he'd attack some women, and would continue attacking women with increasing severity, even if this particular planned attack got thwarted by police bothering to investigate his flashing a few days earlier.

[sashh]

@VikingVolva I can understand that they check for any / all interactions with the police but I can't find any other record checks.

I'm thinking that had the previous employer sent a barring referral that would show up on a DBS but not necessarily on a police check.

[nosafeguardingadults]

Posted here cos felt relevant cos people saying they care about women being safe but feel maybe not cos reply to my post makes me feel thread to attack police more important than caring if women safe.

Police have problems but are also organisation that has helped lots of other women. They helped me and only reason I not safe is cos other organisations meant to keep women safe didn't help. They told me to just call police so relevant cos if I had read this thread I'd never called police. I not safe still not safe right now not safe but get responses like the reply here if try to ask advice or help. Suggesting I'm lying or bad person who doesn't deserve to get safe cos not saying all perfect help out there.

Same used to happen to women who had bad police experiences but now people allowed to post about bad experiences without being told to expect push back as if they're bad person who doesn't count as woman at risk.

Police helped me but I know other people had bad experiences and don't feel they should expect push back from people like me who had good experience. I told don't post about not being given help and bad experiences in case puts women off as if I'm not one of the women needing help but also same thing goes for police.

Threads saying bad examples of large organisations like police also may put women off getting help. Really relevant to my post cos when ask other places for help, bad ones that don't want to help tell you to just call police. Some women won't want to do that after reading all these negative experiences but people not told to shut up about anything negative and not told everyone else had good experiences.

I know most organisations meant to help are good and that includes lots of individual police officers but there are problems and I'm not the only one cos other women also posted about it.

How can women be safe if not saying when help goes wrong. Right now I'm not safe and nowhere to turn except police and although can't turn to them anyway cos nowhere safe to go, why would I trust them anyway after reading this.

[MotionActivatedDog]

Fucking hell! Can’t discuss police failings on a thread about a specific police officer kidnapping, raping and murdering a woman who should have been arrested days earlier because you had a good experience with the police and it might put others off reporting ??

This isn’t the thread for you to grind your axe.

[nosafeguardingadults]

Wasn't saying that. Hope some people maybe will read my post properly.

Waa saying same principle should be for people talking about other organisations that meant to help women like me at risk of domestic and sexual violence and murder but we told not to speak about it because other people had a good experience and it might put people off.

I have been put off going to police after these threads also but doesn't matter in my situation cos can't go to police if no help or safe place after but been put off trusting police now too.

Think still important to have this thread and was posting to say if people genuinely care about women like me who are experiencing violence and rape, should also be able to speak about problem with other organisations without being told to expect pushback from people who had good experiences.

That reply felt like trying to shut me up or tell me I'm lying. Like how women were told in past when they tried to talk about police problems. I thought this thread was genuine concern for women like me at risk of violence and rape.

[nosafeguardingadults]

Not axe to grind. Am experiencing and at risk of more violence and rape and murder and can't get help if can't say what happens with problem with places and people who didn't help. Told me to just go to police. Why would I want to do that.

Then when try to post asking what to do how to get help, am told not to say anything that might put people off getting help. Posted here to ask why difference in organisations in that it's bad to risk putting women off other organisations but it's ok to risk putting women off police. Think all problems whatever organisation should be said about.

Thought this thread was people worried about women at risk. I am one of those women. Why is it not axe to grind if saying bad police experience but my situation bad experience other places and can't get help if can't say what happened, an axe to grind. Trying to make it not happen to other women as well cos it will if not allows to talk about when it goes wrong. Same reasoning you all saying for talking about police problems.

[nosafeguardingadults]

Thought this thread was about concern for women at risk of violence and rape and murder so if it is, important to speak about related problems cos relevant if people really want to help make women safer.

[MotionActivatedDog]

[nosafeguardingadults]

When nowhere safe to go and being told by organisation or person meant to help to just go to police. Should I trust police now or what do I do? Doesn't matter cos don't trust anyone now.

[NumberTheory]

@nosafeguardingadults

Wasn't saying that. Hope some people maybe will read my post properly.

Waa saying same principle should be for people talking about other organisations that meant to help women like me at risk of domestic and sexual violence and murder but we told not to speak about it because other people had a good experience and it might put people off.

I have been put off going to police after these threads also but doesn't matter in my situation cos can't go to police if no help or safe place after but been put off trusting police now too.

Think still important to have this thread and was posting to say if people genuinely care about women like me who are experiencing violence and rape, should also be able to speak about problem with other organisations without being told to expect pushback from people who had good experiences.

That reply felt like trying to shut me up or tell me I'm lying. Like how women were told in past when they tried to talk about police problems. I thought this thread was genuine concern for women like me at risk of violence and rape.

My comment about push back wasn’t intended to shut you up, and I specifically said that it was important to talk about other organizations that fail victims of domestic violence. I just wanted to make sure you weren’t expecting people to only agree.

Unless it is a post about an organization involved in the Sarah Everard murder and illustrates how they may have let her down, it’s probably not relevant to this thread, though. This isn’t a thread about women’s safety in general. It’s about a policeman killing Sarah Everard.

[NiceGerbil]

It think it is vital to talk about the shitness of so many services when women need their help.

Yes it may well put people off reporting. But if it's never mentioned then no one will know how shit they can be.

The fact that the police had reports from the past related to sex offences. Which they had on record and knew definitely who it was. And none were acted on. Is medicament massively shit.

When you have an ex officer going on the national news about the SC case. And saying the police just aren't interested in indecent exposure.

Then that's not women putting anyone off. The police do it with a loudhailer all the time.

[NiceGerbil]

I suspect DV services are way better than the police. I know that they are hugely underfunded so that is a problem.

Orgs like women's aid etc this thread is not about them.

It's about the police, specifically the met who are fucking awful in so many ways.

They are my force and they need total overhaul.

[nosafeguardingadults]

They my force too. They helped me in that I probably be dead if they hadn't come out several occasions. Only bad thing for me was they never interviewed witnesses who called them several times. Would have helped cos it's a lie that you don't need police evidence for help to leave. Injuries you can't prove who did them.

Some councils don't care less if you in danger beaten or raped. I sound like bad person and maybe I am but I sort of hope I am killed so the places that aren't helping get found out in investigation. No way possible to get help from councils without support. Councils have you for breakfast.

Sorry so maybe I'm bad and deserve everything but don't care anymore. I don't blame my local Met police cos think they not enough funding. They always came out very quickly.

Police cared more than my local domestic abuse service. They tried to help. I been through so much more abuse cos wasn't helped by the domestic abuse service.

Sorry to post inappropriate here but today again tried to get help. Only get so many opportunities not always possible to make calls or try to leave so limited window. Disinterested shrug attitude.

Definitely one hundred percent not all women's aid. Most been so kind. One women's aid out of my area been so kind. They understand my situation and want to help but not in my area. Literally left tonight another day on phone and online round in circles.

Horrible awful experience again and again and feel so sick seeing people talk about violence against women but then if no help when you try to tell people you treated like bad person.

I'm sorry inappropriate thread just cos what last poster saying about the police is so relevant also to domestic abuse service's when it goes wrong. It's torture cruel being told get help being told it's you making excuses or lying that not being helped and so then just stuck at risk maybe will be killed or raped again or maybe never again but prefer to be helped to be safe so not hanging over me the risk.

Sorry again. It's just again posters making me feel like it's ok to speak about problems with police but not when it's domestic abuse organisation. They not all good people working in them. Most so good but some bad.

What can be worse than an organisation meant to help women suffering violence bit helping. Psychologically worse than if police don't help.

Thing is so relevant cos the places that don't help tell you to call the police so only people I'm told to turn to are the police.

[nosafeguardingadults]

Worse organisations worse million times than police are councils. They don't care at all about sexual violence, physical violence, anything. They lie and lie and break the law. If you don't have good support then no chance against them.

Sorry won't post again really sorry not appropriate anymore on this thread cos don't want to take away focus from Sarah.

Just don't understand why people so angry about what happened with the police but they don't want to know about related problems for women in danger.

Feel like no wonder sometimes problems with police cos it's accepted when it's other places not helping women. General attitudes maybe so don't see how it gets better unless all of it talked about cos all related. I not explaining well but maybe someone uunderstand.

If nowhere else in authority cares enough about if women are safe, its no surprise if police not doing enough either.

[BrandineDelRoy]

I'm not in the UK so I can't speak about councils, but I think the anger on this particular thread had to do with the fact that the police failed to properly vet a member of their force that went on to abduct, rape, and murder an innocent woman.

[nosafeguardingadults]

Same police force other innocent women are told to go to for help when in violent relationship and asking places to help. They told me to just go to police.

It's a culture in this country where local authorities the councils legally meant to help but they don't and only way to be safe is to have someone willing to fight for you but getting someone is down to luck and depending where you live.

Some people might see women like me as not innocent or not important or not worth helping because we're annoying and don't come across as stereotype victim or just because we're in a relationship with the violent man so they think it's our fault.

Don't think they realise that the attitude and culture of accepting violence against women and not helping them and ignoring them or telling them to shut up about problems, that culture is how it ends up with other failures like with the failed vetting of that policeman.

It's because it happens all the time. All the time happens these failings with not safeguarding and not doing what legally meant to do.

[nosafeguardingadults]

Lots of the time it's just women like me, at bottom of life, vulnerable situations so when we failed by people and organisations meant to help noone listens or cares and too dangerous mainly for us to say anything cos speaking out puts our lives at risk.

People think it doesn't usually matter but it then becomes accepted acceptable. Failings, not safeguarding, not doing what legally meant to do to keep women safe from violence. That's how it happened with this policeman. Cos it's happening all the time in all places and organisations meant to keep women safe.

Don't know if anyone will understand what I'm trying to say but maybe some of you will. I'm trying to say it's not in isolation. Reason why what happened did happen is because safeguarding failings happen all the time everyday.

[BrandineDelRoy]

I think what you're saying is important. It deserves its own thread if you're willing to start one, which I understand can be intimidating. It doesn't matter if anyone thinks you're not innocent enough. You have something to say.

[nosafeguardingadults]

It is relevant cos safeguarding failure in Sarah Everand case part of general failures. The failures don't happen in isolation. All related.

[NumberTheory]

@nosafeguardingadults

It is relevant cos safeguarding failure in Sarah Everand case part of general failures. The failures don't happen in isolation. All related.

Not all failures are related and since you still haven’t said what the failures are that you are referring to, there’s no way for us to discuss how they might be related to this case. All you’re doing at the moment is derailing this thread.