Insomnia friends; bye bye 2010 the year of bad sleep, hello 2011 the year of good sleep!

[BeckyBendyLegs]

How about this then everyone?

Getdown - thanks so much for your advice. You are exactly right, I do think about sleep in a very negative way, but only ever on nights when I need to get up for work the next day. At the weekends I sleep like a log and drop off straight away because I know there is no pressure. I don't know why I am so bothered about being tired at work really
I will try your suggestion of keeping a positive thoughts diary because all day I have been dreading bedtime because I only got 3 hours last night.
I think it's also because I have gone back to work leaving dd when I really don't want to, so I feel generally out of sorts.
Really hoping everyone gets some zzzz tonight!

I can't cope with this anymore, I really can't. Was still awake at 4am this morning and had had no sleep. In desperation I took half a sleeping tablet and managed to get to sleep by 4:30, DS was up at 6:50.

I can't live like this anymore.

I don't think the ADs are helping, I think they've made it much much worse, I keep thinking about hurting myself and i'm just so paranoid about not sleeping. I begged DH to be to not leave me alone today and not to go into work but he has gone in and i'm all alone with my dark thoughts. Of course DS is some comfort but I worry about how much damage i'm doing to him by letting him see me like this. I think everyone would be so much happier and better off if I wasn't here.

I can't understand why the doctor couldn't give me a sedating AD rather than a SSRI. He's treating the insomnia like its a symptom of the depression but I think the depression has been caused by the insomnia. I feel like no one is listening to me. When I sleep well all symptoms of the depression go.

Please let this get better soon, I feel so lost and have no idea how to save myself.

I'm going to start a new post asking people about sertraline and their experiences to see if i'm not the only one.

Sorry to bring the thread down again

Holly it is 8.30 now please ring your surgery and say you have to see a/your GP today. Tell them it is urgent that you and others (me!!) are concerned about how you are feeling.

It may be that you need to persist a bit it may be that you need to switch to something else. But whatever the case you need some help today.

I've been in that place where you think everyone is better off without you especially ds, and I nearly acted on it and from that place I can tell you it is a lie that your illness is telling you. You do need to be here for ds - you are his only mummy so hang in there xxx

Holly I have been where you are today. I remember begging DH not to go to work after me having 2 hours sleep even after taking a sleeping tablet, after having panic attacks in the night about not sleeping. I remember thinking that life wasn't worth living if I couldn't sleep. I remember thinking that the DSs would be better off without me. I remember feeling lost like you do.

It does get better. It is very, very hard but you need to convince your body that you CAN sleep. At the moment you are in this spiral of 'I can't sleep', 'there's something wrong with me, the sleeping tablets don't work'. It's amazing how strong the subconcious can be when it wants to be and how determined the body can be at resisting sleep. I know you probably hardly feel like reading but do you have the Paul McKenna book? He has some really useful things to say about how to work on the sleep issue and how to convince your subconcious that you can sleep. It is hard work, it takes a long time, but it does work and you will get better. I know you will because I was there this time last year. I can remember taking DS1 and DS2 to a toddler group after 2 nights of 2 hours each sleep and I was really at the bottom of the well. I wanted to get out but could not see how to get out and nobody understood (except everyone on this thread!). I thought I was broken. I agree with you, the insomnia causes depression. As soon as I started to sleep better, I felt better.

I hope your GP can help. Take it very easy today, lots of positive thinking (I know it is really hard but I remember GetDown saying to me it is harder to be negative all the time than it is to be a bit positive some of the time). You WILL get better. I did. GetDown did. You will. You will! You can sleep naturally.

Holly, you are not alone, it could have been me writing your post - I finally dropped off to sleep sometime after 430am - and had to get up at 6am. It has been like this for a looong time and I have just started citalopram - took the first one yesterday. That's a good, positive post from Becky for all of us sufferers.

Have you managed to make a doc's appointment?

My GP isn't there today and there are no appointments today or tomorrow. I said to the lady on the other end of the phone that I felt the situation was serious and that I urgently needed to see a doctor and she told me that i'd have to go to the surgery at 4pm and sit and wait.

It means that i'm going to have to tell a totally different doctor the whole story which i'm dreading.

I had to have a nap when DS was having one. I know I shouldn't sleep in the day but I was going mad. Even then I only dozed on and off for 40 mins.

I have been reading Paul's book lots and I have tried all the different exercises over and over again the past few months. The problems is i'm so groggy I can't focus on any of the exercises. I'll start one, drift off and then wake up suddenly a few seconds later. I know its all to do with how my brain is programmed and I know I can get myself out of it but i'm finding it so hard. I so want to try proper hypnotherapy but we just can't afford it, although DH to be thinks we might just have to go for it. He doesn't think the doctors are sorting the main problem, the insomnia. He does think i'm depressed and that I need ADs but he thinks they need to be a type designed to help with insomnia.

I'll happily keep going with the sertraline if the doctor thinks i'm OK but I don't think I am.

Thank you for all your support.

You're right madmouse I am DS's only mummy and he does need me, he wouldn't last 5 mins with Daddy in charge!

Hi holly it's just after 4, I really hope you are getting on ok at the dr. I hated those appointments when I was really ill and hadn't had any sleep, it was just awful.

I know exactly what you mean, as does becky and many others on here, we have discussed it a lot - what comes first, the depression or the insomnia? Does the insomnia cause the depression or vice versa?

The drs. like to think the depression causes the insomnia, but like you, I am not so sure. The insomnia definitely came first in my case - I was not low or anxious, but just couldn't sleep. Gradually as the sleepless nights increased, my mood deteriorated and anxiety went sky high. After a good nights sleep I would feel better. So I think much of it IS down to the insomnia.

I wish I could give you an easy solution. It is SO SO hard. The hardest thing I have ever endured. Please hang in there, it DOES get better, it really does. I know things seem so bad at the moment, but your DS needs you. Like you, and like becky I had many days where I begged DH in utter desperation to stay home with me, a few times he did, but most of the time he had to go into work. Those days were so awful, the minutes dragged by, and I panicked whenever I had to do anything like make DD food or go out. It was terrible. Sleep deprivation robs you off your confidence, your ability to think clearly, your happiness, sense of wellbeing, everything really.

For me, a sedating AD was definitely what was needed. It makes me so sad and angry that GPs only seem to prescribe SSRIs (these most definitely did not work for me). The only way I got a sedating one was through referral to mental health services by seeing a psychiatrist, and I'm sorry to say it, but the only way I got referred to mental health services was by turning up at A&E and letting them see for themselves how ill I was. It shouldn't be that way, but unfortunately that is the way it works sometimes.

I am really thinking of you, and begging you to hang in there, we will hold your hand and help you through this.

Thinking of you too odetothewestwing you sound like you are really going through it at the moment too - I hope the citalopram helps you.xx

Hi all,

It turns out seeing a different doctor was well worth it. He's told me to stop the Sertraline straight away. I've got to wait a few days to flush it out of my system and then i've got to go back and see him about trying a different type of AD not an SSRI this time. He said the SSRIs are likely cause insomnia which is why i'm probably feeling worse, he said I shouldn't have been given an SSRI. He also said they in extreme cases Sertraline can cause you to have really dark thoughts about hurting yourself! He wants to look into sedating ADs next. Yippee!

He also said the sleeping pills i'm taken are the lowest strength and I need to take a higher dose to help me sleep as I have chronic insomnia. He wants me to continue taking them for a couple of weeks and then he'll gradually bring me off them by slowly lowering the dose. I've been so worried about getting addicted that i've only been taking half a tablet, no wonder they weren't working!

I am so thankful that I was seen by a different doctor and that he really listened to me. My score on the depression questionaire was really high and about 8 points higher than my last one 2 weeks ago.

He's also arranging some more support from my health visitor, which is good.

Thank you for all your help everyone, i'm so lucky that I found you all here.

Feeling a lot better.

That's great to hear holly I'm pleased you've seen someone that talks a lot of sense.

BTW the sedating AD I took was called mirtazapine, it did really help me. There are other sedating ones as well though.

Holly I'm so pleased you saw an understanding GP. I have to say mine just told me to go away and relax! But that's an old story now.

I hope you feel some relief now you've had a good talk and you will sleep well tonight, and once you try a different AD I'm sure things will improve, not only GetDown but also another ex-insomniac here who we haven't heard from for ages so she must be better now CountryLover was given a sedating AD and had much success.

Holly so glad to hear this - I was worried about you this morning

Have a child with chicken pox :( - came home at 4.45 to a dh in bed with bad migraine and a call from nursery that they had found two spots in ds's nappy....well it's all over him already. And I'm in a mess. Was already struggling and now I just want to cry. I have to go to work Monday as we're being trained for the new computer system that's going live and I don't know how it's going to work, with some abuse stuff and a really bad night on top...

madmouse why are you so worried? Is it the chicken pox or missing work? If it is the chicken pox try not to worry. Toby had it exactly a year ago and he was covered head to toe, literally, he looked like a baby alien, and he was fine, he got over it. DS1 and DS2 had it as well just before. We coped. You'll be fine xx

Sorry you have some things coming through at the moment. You've got through this before; you'll get through it. You are a very strong person.

Becky thank you - that's the frustrating thing...I can get very anxious over ds's health but I'm fine with chickenpox - it's basically a rite of passage involving little or no complications. I was already struggling and the practicalities have knocked me a bit.

madmouse I get really anxious over DS's health too, I think every Mummy does but some of us find it harder than others. I tend to fall apart if DS has just got a cold so I can understand that chicken pox must be quite scary for you. Just think he'll only get it once.

I'm feeling better after a good nights sleep but now having a crashing headache and feel sick. Probably withdrawal symptoms of the sertraline. DS very grumpy today, really unike him. Maybe he's finally getting a tooth? He's 8 months and hasn't got one yet.

Thank you everyone or looking out for me. I gave myself quite a scare.

Holly - so glad you had a good appointment. Its makes such a difference to have someone listen to you properly.

Madmouse - hope you feel a bit better over the weekend. Even though you're not concerned about the CP - it does make things harder when you have the practicalities of illness into everything else x

hi everyone - just checking in...i do still sometimes have a nose around on this thread to check you're all still doing ok.

Holly sorry to hear you're having such a rough time but as the others have said we have unfortunately all been there in one form or another. i too was at the stage of literally begging DH to stay at home with me and not go to work after i'd had one or two hours sleep. the thought of being responsible for a baby was utterly horrifying. gradually the insomnia led to severe anxiety which then led to deep depression.

i struggled on for several months until i finally 'gave in' (that's what it felt like at the time but i now realise i was taking a very positive step) and started ad's. i took dosulpin 75 mg which is three tablets. they took about four weeks to really kick in. the first thing i noticed is that i felt less anxious (that was within about two weeks) then i started sleeping better and then after about six weeks i was showing the first signs of actually looking forward to the future again.

it's almost exactly a year since i went on them and i have reduced to 25mg (one tablet). i'm still on them and i've tried to come off completely a couple of times but i find the anxiety comes back and then so does the insomnia. so, i'm still not cured as such but taking one tablet every night (which is apparantly such a low dose that it can't actually do anything, 75mg - 3 tablets is the starting dose for dosulepin) keeps me on an even keel and that suits me just fine!

i never would have believed that i could be so genuinely happy again a year on. i've even got a new job which bearing in mind 12 months ago, i couldn't even leave the house due to insomnia induced anxiety is really quite something.

so, you will get better once you're on the right medication and this time next year you will look back on this time and think 'thank f*ck that's over with'!!

ps getdown - i don't think i've congratulated you on your pregnancy - i am sooooooo pleased for you! i may be in touch soon to find out exactly how you managed to finally come off your ad's. i know you had to try a few times before you did it. (not because i'm wanting to get pregnant rest assured - i've done my bit for the human race now!)

Waves to countrylover it's good to see you again. Thanks for your congrats. I waver between being really excited, and then really terrified that all this crap will happen again

I had my booking in appt. yesterday. It went ok, but they got to the bit about "previous births" and I basically had to explain the whole sorry story - from the traumatic birth to all the stuff that came after.

The midwife looked at me a bit like this and I had that horrible feeling she was thinking "why on earth are YOU having another baby?" Like I shouldn't be having one or something Just dented my confidence a bit. And I thought, maybe I shouldn't be doing this.

She also said I would definitely have to be under consultant care, and she would recommend a planned c-section. Whilst I know that sounds a good idea, I'm not so sure. DH is pushing me down the c-section route but I'm not sure that's what I want Don't much like the thought of being cut open. DH also upset me the other night by basically implying that if b/feeding did not work successfully within the first 3 days, we were giving up and going on to bottles This makes me very upset as I SO want to b/feed. But is it selfish, given my history?

Also I really want to try and use washable nappies this time (hated the bags and bags of waste last time) but yet again DH says "I don't think so". He says he's trying to protect me, and wants to make things as easy as possible. But I feel a bit bullied Don't want to be forced down routes I don't want to go.

Anyway, sorry for going on about me.

countrylover - I am SO SO glad to hear you are doing so well, and a new job too! Would be happy to chat to you about coming off ADs... like you I was on a v. low dose of mine (what they said was "clinically insignificant") for a long time, and it was so hard to get off it, but I think a lot of the factor is psychological and you CAN get there in the end.

madmouse sorry to hear about the chicken pox. DD hasn't had it yet and I am dreading it TBH.

holly I'm glad you had a better night. Hopefully the withdrawal from sertraline will be ok because you weren't on it that long. I hope you find an AD that really works for you.

Lots of love to all x

Hello CountryLover good to hear from you!

GetDown my advice on the breastfeeding thing, coming from someone who got very, very upset about giving up, is to go with the flow as much as you can (take each day you are able to breastfeed as a positive - that's one more day you've done it, that's another day you've done it). And whether you keep going, or go to bottles, or whatever it must be YOUR decision and no one else's. I hated the fact my mum especially, less so DH because he knew how I felt, tried to 'persuade' me to give up using very emotive arguments such as 'he's starving hungry', 'you need to give him bottles for his benefit', 'he'll be more content and settled on bottles', etc.

Anyway, today is DS2's joint birthday party with his BFF (can a six year old have a best female friend?) and we're having 32 children in the local scout hut this lunch time. Wish me luck!

Getdown is it really as black and white as a c-section being better for you? What are the benefits?

And why would you be selfish for wanting to breastfeed? Is it because of meds or because people worry you will get stressed about it?

Sorry if the answers should be obvious to me but I'm genuinly interested, also because for me (for different reasons) a c-section for the next one looks pretty unavoidable...

thanks you two, hope the party goes well becky. 32 kids, wow you are very brave! Glad you are feeling positive about it. I know what you mean re the b/feeding. It has to be my decision. But it was so so tough to give up last time Felt like such a failure. I haven't told DH the strength of my feelings as I think he would be horrified, but I am actually desperate to make it work this time.

madmouse it's hard to explain re. the c-section thing. The benefits are plenty: can plan childcare for DD, would be during the day, would not get so exhausted / stressed out etc, wouldn't need loads of additional stuff like morphine which makes baby sleepy, would avoid horrible incontinence which I had last time etc. etc.. There are loads of pros really.

But I guess in the back of my mind is that I DID manage it last time with DD, it is the natural way, maybe a c-section would be a cop out? Particularly if there is no actual medical reason for it? Also we live in a 3 storey house and am a bit worried about the going up and down constantly with a big painful scar to contend with.

Whether b/feeding is selfish for me - I don't plan to be on meds, although if they make me take ADs that will obviously be a factor. DH thinks that it was the stress of b/feeding not working last time that tipped me over the edge. He thinks it may be better to avoid that risk altogether this time. Also he wants to be able to do some night feeds so I can get some more sleep. I know this is a good thing, but I feel that b/feeding is the ONE thing I would be able to do for this baby that no one else can do. And I don't want anything to come between me and that bonding process this time. Does that make sense.

How are things with you?

Hi all been away for a few days so haven't been able to post.

getdown this is where I am seriously going to get on my soap box so i'm saying sorry in advance in case I upset you. I also don't know what you went through with your first birth but I had a third dagree tear with DS both ways and was left doubly incontinent for some time and had had to have 2 operations but I am now fine, just find weeing a bit tricky sometimes . In my opinion a c-section is not a better option for several reasons:

1. It is known that breast feeding can be more difficult after a c-section.

1. C-sections are painful and it could still leave you with possible incontinence issues. You will also be just as tired and stressed most likely.

1. You are more likely to get depressed once you're at home because you wont be able to drive for several weeks or do much round the house.

If you want a c-section then go for it but make sure it is what you want. The hospital tried to bully me into a c-sectiona and i'm so glad I refused as I had a lovely birth even though I did tear badly. I have no regrets about my birth even though I was quite ill for a while afterwards. Second births are usually easier too, surely it would be better to see how you get on during your labour?

Sorry but I am very anti c-sections unless they are necessary. Hospitals like you to have them as they can plan when you come in and when you go home and they don't have to worry about following your wishes too much, e.g if you have a complicated birth plan.

Please don't be forced into anything or do anything to make everyone else feel better. You are the one who has to have the baby, not them.

Also re-breast feeding and nappies. I really struggled with breast feeding too and I think that did possibly make me depressed but some babies find it easier than others. I think you should try to breast feed if you want to and keep going as long as you want, just keep an open mind, which you are more likely to do this time anyway. I know so many people who struggled with their first babies but then found it really easy with their second ones. I personally would also use washable nappies if I had another one too so I can see where you are coming from!

I think everyone needs to leave you alone and let you make your own decisions. They need to realise that trying to force you into things you don't want to do or not listening to you is just going to stress you out and make you feel rubbish. They should just let you get on with enjoying being pregnant rather than assuming things will be like last time. Most women cope far better with their second babies because they know what to expect. You also know yourself a lot better now and you will know if things are getting too much.

I'm really sorry if i've upset you with my rant. Its just i'm sort of going through the same thing at the moment as I would like to start thinking about another baby but everyone is against me and is telling me what I should or shouldn't do and its very annoying and I think has actually made my depression/insomnia worse.

Hope you don't hate me for saying all of that.

Holly I understand most of what you are saying and agree with a fair bit of it, but hospitals do not like you to have c-sections! It costs them theatre time, surgeons and team, the risks are higher, you're kept in longer which is more expensive and blocks beds...They prefer you to have a nice natural birth with gas and air and if you need it some pethidine and to go home the same or the next day.

Getdown it looks like there are good reasons to consider a section. But the outcome of that consideration is far from black and white. In case of the breastfeeding I think Becky was very wise - take it a day at a time. I feel a lot of sympathy for your dh as he saw it all happen last time and he must be desperate to prevent it happen again. But the questions is whether you not bf is the way to achieve that. If you have one as easy to feed as mine was the nights may be ok (N would typically wake hungry every 3 hours, suck for 10min, fall off and go back to sleep and thanks to the bf hormones so did I. See how you go with it.

thanks both so much. Other people's input on this is really helpful to me - obviously can't really discuss with friends in RL at the moment, and it's just going round and round my head.

holly I totally get where you are coming from re c-sections, in fact I am inclined to agree with you that they are def not the easy option. I agree with madmouse though that they are more expensive for the hospitals though so they prob don't want you to have a c-section if you can avoid it. It worries me that you think b/feeding can be harder after c-sections - why is this, is it just because of the painful scar (i.e. baby resting on it) or does it actually affect your milk supply in some way?

You are totally right that second time births are often much quicker and easier, and for that reason my instinct is to "give it a go" (after all I did manange to push DD out in the end), but DH seems to think I have a warped memory of it all (prob partly true) and that I am not remembering the trauma and the sheer agony correctly. He just can't understand why I would not want to bypass that stage completely this time round. I am very torn.

Thanks for your comments re. b/feeding and the washable nappies. Maybe I am being too ambitious, but I really want to succeed at both. I feel I need DH's support with both though or I will go to pieces. I do totally agree that some babies take to it quicker than others. I think DD was just particularly non-interested (even now she is not very interested in food)./ Perhaps if I have a boy this time they will be more interested in feeding. Good to hear that your DS was easy to feed madmouse.

You are right re. DH - he definitely has good motives in all this and doesn't want to force me to do anything - I think he suffered a great deal through all my illness and understandably wants to avoid going through all that again as well as seeing me struggle so much.

~Anyway I'm going to end on a positive - I am 12 weeks today! @Yay! And I've made it through the first trimester without taking medication - something I never thought I'd achieve. So woo-hoo.

How's DS madmouse?

And how's your sleep holly?

getdown wow - 12 weeks looks like this baby is sticking and you are doing so well

There is some evidence that milk can be slower to come in after a section purely due to the baby being born without the hormone reaction that normally drives labour. And I think if you look at those whose milk never came in at all (which is rare) there may be a few more c-sections in there than naturla births. But for most women bf after a section is totally possible. You will need ot experiment a bit with positioning.

I want to be careful not to push you in a particular direction, but ds and I had a difficult start in a different way from you with ds's scary start and bfeeding has been very important in me feeling I was doing the best for ds and to help us bond. So I would find it really hard to say to you oh yes go with bottles it will be fine.

I do find it easier to say forget about washable nappies for at least the first month please! There's plenty of time to use them after that. Dutch research shows that the benefits of washables are far less than what is commonly thought (and the dutch are very eco compared to brits). Don't set yourself up to work too hard. You can do without washing pooh nappies and changing them all the time.

ds is not too bad - had a high temp last night and has burst out in spots everywhere. He's clingy today and likes to sit on laps and hug. But he's also been playing.

I'm struggling.