Tough love

[kibbutz83]

I am sitting here wondering if anyone out there has heard of "tough love"? Believe it or not it can actually help those who are "stuck", far more, and far quicker than constant cries of "there there dear, it will get better". I know that none of you mumsnetter's will approve of or agree with me, as you only ignore me anyway...but just as all of you, I am also entitled to my opinion. Unfortunately my opinion is too "clinical" for you supportive types :( I spent nearly 2 years in group psychotherapy, and have come to recognize that sometimes the "only" way to deal with our seemingly insurmountable problems is to face them head-on, and not always hope or expect others to carry us through...I find that we should also learn to rely on our own judgement however skewed it may seem at any given time. Therapy perhaps, the advice of laypeople I'm not sure..especially when there are mental health issues involved ::(

It is a valid point of view-however some people will agree and some will disagree, with all shades between. The world would be a boring place if everyone agreed!

You are being allowed to express your point of view. It's here, on the virtual page, in its undeleted glory. People are reading it, and responding, so they are considering what you believe.

Not one person on this thread has attacked you in the slightest.

I just posted another message, trying to express myself, and it appears to have been "removed". Looks like I'm Ms Unpopular all round then.. Seems as though unpopular ideas get squashed, just like unpopular people.

Oh no I apologize, it's suddenly appeared.

If you've only just posted something, and it didn't show up, then it hasn't been deleted by MNHQ. They would let you know.

That's all I ask, that people consider what I say, and keep it in mind.

Kibbutz you are getting paranoid now - you are hte only one who thinks you're on your own and being ganged up upon...

It's the words from friend in RL and friends on here - sometimes just saying 'You can do it, you will survive this, take it a day at a time' that mean I'm still here today and about to be discharged from counselling after, like you, horrendous sexual abuse.

It rather sounds to me, and I can imagine it sounds patronising so ignore if you like, that you are trying to get the shield back over the feelings to keep surviving rather than living and it's not working.

Of course you are entitled to that opinion madmouse. But after all is said and done you don't know me, just as I don't know you.. and if I seem paranoid, it's hardly surprising I've had about 20 minutes sleep. And that was my experience to deal with alone unfortunately, as I realize no-one else could help me through it:(

Kibbutz that's an extremely cynical view, which of course you are entitled to have and be respected for, not attacked for. It does make me feel sad that you feel that way :(

Hi itsonlyajob, do you really imagine that I haven't been to see my GP? There is nothing they can do to help me, as I have begged them to send me to a sleep clinic, and they refuse time and time again, as the cost is too high. I strongly believe that you would become quite cynical if you were in my shoes right now. This is just the reason why I say we need to learn to deal with our own problems... because unfortunately at the "end of the day", that will be the bottom line.
So I appreciate what you are saying itsonly, but in reality I will still be "going it alone".
I wish I was still naive, and believing that people really care... but I know that the bottom line is that they don't. When you've abused, raped and used by human beings the way I have, you tend to lose faith in human nature.
So as cynical as I may sound, this is my reality, and my view of the world... and I can't apologize for it, as I would be "betraying myself", and too many other's (including my parents and my brother) have done that since I was very young.
So yes rl support would be good, as I am struggling, but there isn't any, so what else do you all suggest for me?

That was "been" abused, I didn't do the abusing

kibbutz these were your exact first words on the insomnia thread:

"Oh my word ladies, how comforting it is to meet you all I've only joined Mumsnet today, so am new to the game. I have spent the last 3 hours reading all of your comments! I wish I could say that my sleep problems were a passing phase, but they've been going on for nearly 5 years now...."

and everyone welcomed you and we shared our insomnia woes. How can you say that no one really cares? People DO care, and not everyone in life is out to abuse you, but I realise that what has happened to you has left you with a warped sense of human nature

Of course you are entitled to your opinion, that "the answer only lies within yourself" and "no one else can really help you with your problems". I can and do accept that this is your opinion. It is a valid opinion and no ones has the right to say you can't hold that opinion.

However, can you also accept that other people hold different opinions? And that just because you do not find the support on here helpful, that other people can and DO find this support helpful?

The reason you were asked to leave lelarose alone was because your posts were not helpful to her (she said it, no one else) and because she was in a very delicate state, no one wanted to see her plummet into despair again because of some thoughtless comments.

Your posts are very confused. On the one hand you are saying you don't want support, you don't agree with mumsnet as a place for mental health support, you don't care what other people think, but at the same time you want your own feelings validated, you hit out with hurt and bitterness when anyone disagrees with you, and rather than walking away and saying "MN is not for me" you keep coming back for more... can you see how contradictory that is?

I really hope you get the support you need in RL, or somehow "find the strength within yourself" to overcome your problems. I know from personal experience that severe mental illness is like being down a huge dark hole, and sometimes no matter how hard you thrash around, you are never going to get out of there on your own.

My comments towards Lelarose weren't "thoughtless", they were "assertive", as that's what I believe she needs. Because of my own life experiences, which are very real, and shared by too many people, I believe that I do have the "right" to say what I feel, as in my belief life is not all about the "support" that you and the other women give. It at some point becomes about facing the reality and not trying to "hide" from that reality until you don't know where to turn. If I have been contradictory I apologize, as lack of sleep will have that effect on the brain :(
I don't want you all to say " oh yes we all agree with you..." All I want is for YOU to understand that sometimes we have to come from a different perspective, not always a loving "supportive" one.
I don't expect you to "agree" with me, that's not what I'm trying to do at all. I'm just saying that there isn't always an answer "out there" for us as human beings... as we are all very different.
I must say I do find some of your comments quite patronising, and I'm not sure what makes you feel entitled to do that?
I have as much "right" to be here as any of you..

Yes you have a right to say how you feel, but no you don't have a right to hurt and offend someone who is in a very delicate state.

I'm not going to waste any more time on this thread.

That's your choice... I cannot argue with it GetDown.

I've read the posts that I presume started this off. I can see that you were trying to do, and that's great.

No one was saying that you weren't allowed an opinion, just that in that circumstance it was not the most helpful.

Hi MaimAnd.... all I was trying to do was to make Lelarose "confront" her fears. Who are any of us to say "we are right", and "you are wrong"? Lela was talking about suicide, and my first reaction was ( and would still be ) for the safety of her unborn baby boy. I think I was just trying to get her to accept some responsibility for her situation...after all no-one "forced" this baby upon her.
I am sad that no-one shares my concerns, but I can do nothing about that, except say what I feel and believe...

I totally get what you were trying to do, and think that is great. Unfortunately at that moment it wasn't the best thing to say. Maybe she'll come back to it and see it differently.

I used to use a board that dealt primarily with eating disorders and self harm, most of the time what people wanted was sympathy and a shoulder to cry on. Even if sometimes you wanted to shake them and make them look at things differently, it wasn't always the best plan. In the depths of depression (as I'm sure you know) you are very sensitive to tough love, it can seem like you are being told that your feelings are invalid. Everyone I know with depression absolutely loathes being told to "pull themselves together", even if sometimes that is what is needed.

I do share your concerns, it was part of the reason I left the board, I felt that people were almost being encouraged to wallow in self pity. And I think I felt that because I was healing, it changes your view. Having dragged yourself out of the depths you do kind of feel like, why can't others do it?

But, I'm currently back at the bottom of that black pit, and (hopefully soon) I will get myself together and start fighting back again. Right now though I need to have a break and need to regain strength for another fight, and sympathy is more helpful now than tough love.

Kibbutz you sound lovely, and are really inspirational. Please don't be offended when someone isn't in a position to accept tough love though. It's not a judgement on you or your opinions.

Thanks for understanding Maim :)

I'm amazed that you think it's acceptable to give 'tough love' to a very depressed complete stranger. I think the Internet is misleading in that anonymity leads people to
be harsher than they would normally be.

Just because a particular approach works for you does not mean it is the best for everyone else in mental distress. Consider that in a counselling situation a counsellor would wait a few sessions to build up a trusting relationship before challenging a client's negative behaviour and thought processes. Challenging too early can be very damaging.

I do agree that at some point you do need to personally wrestle with your own distress though - self tough love.

I've come across as harsh because I haven't slept for a very long time....My brain is like mush. I think my frustration comes from decades of helping and supporting people who invariably didn't appreciate how much of myself I gave :( My fault I suppose. I think that I feel very "let down" by the human race, and due to my PTSD everything has just become too much for me to cope with. I have obviously alienated myself, but as they say c'est la vie....

Hi Kibbutz

That's the overwhelming message in what you have been writing on other people's threads - that you are not being 'heard' that nobody notices your effort and struggles.

But on here that isn't true - you could have posted something different, less potentially hurtful to others, and get heard.

Hope you are ok.

TBH I am in such a horrible place that most of the time I don't know what I'm doing... I just wish I knew how to "remove" this thread, as my attempts at being "assertive" and "helpful in the long run" haven't come across well... obviously :( This will be my last post here, as I have other things to deal with, that need my full attention. What's the saying.."I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I'm not"...

Kibbutz you keep hinting at how bad things are for you and how no one understands you but you are not giving anyone a chance.

Our experiences are not the same but you know enough about me that you know I understand a lot.