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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread number 93: Drive in the fasting lane to goal !

974 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 22/10/2020 18:53

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" to maintain on the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally"
means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had past diagnosed Eating Disorders or serious MH problems you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, clothes size

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below if you need a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp
Rough Calories for NFD: Mosely TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Goal Weight For BodyFrame
Calc
Body Fat: BFat Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body types ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate]]

Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Units Cals

FD Recipes:
Mosely LowCarb , low carb Diet Doc
BBC Good Food 200-400 cal meals

BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
5:2 meal plans & recipes , Foodie Under 200 Cals
Vegetarian ,
FD Ready Meals & Fast Food

Any Day:
Meal Planner

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.
  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid sugar or fruit juice. e.g. Stir-fries, soups & stews. Ready meals are OK.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

OP posts:
Thread gallery
6
harriethoyle · 24/11/2020 07:30

Morning gang, I'm self isolating and mildly symptomatic so fasting suspended until my test results come back! Not least because I can't get to the shops for my usual fast staples and no one delivers to me 🙄 sticking to no booze during the week and 16:8 til we know what's what...

ginsparkles · 24/11/2020 07:30

Hello.... do you mind if I join in? Lockdown has sent my routine and diet into free fall. I want to get into a particular dress for new year (assuming the fancy meal out we have planned can still happen!) so I need to hold myself accountable to someone, so can that be you guys?!!

Yesterday was meant to be a fast day but by the time DH came home with the shopping I was starving and went through the house like a plague of locusts!!! Blush I can't get another one in this week so I am going to eat TDEE or under all week to stem the tide, and then plan better for next week.

Thanks for letting me into your party! Smile

harriethoyle · 24/11/2020 07:33

@ginsparkles welcome! Lots of advice here. But to play devil's advocate, why can't you do a FD this week? It's only Tuesday! Take the plunge and fit one in! Grin

ginsparkles · 24/11/2020 07:35

@harriethoyle I could try but I am now not working this week (I'm part time furloughed from my jewellers) and I really struggle to fast when I am at home. I'll review the weeks meal plan and see if there's a day I could try to get one in!

moonlight1705 · 24/11/2020 08:55

Morning all, I've decided to do three minis this week instead so today, tomorrow and Thursday. Got a really nice green bean and lentil salad for lunch.

kylie I hate shop bought mince pies but made my own mincemeat last year and home cooked mince pies... they were divine!! Blush

ListeningQuietly · 24/11/2020 11:55

welcome ginsparkles
the main thing to start right away is
NO SNACKING
meals and nothing in between - especially late at night.
If you can skip breakfast - just have hot drinks - then its easier to keep within TDEE
and
you delay the first blood sugar spike of the day

Petronelle
THat sounds yummy although I do not eat squid or octopus since snorkelling with them shall try it one day this week

Bottl · 24/11/2020 13:42

Hello @ginsparkles!

Lots of help and support here.
I also find it hard to fast when I'm at home but I work from home so had to find a way to make it work. The key thing for me is being mega organised (does not come naturally). I need to know what I'll be having for my evening meal and whether ds will be eating or not. Knowing what's coming helps me to push through any cravings or hunger pangs. Good luck!
@harriethoyle - good luck for your test results and I hope your symptoms disappear soon!
@moonlight1705 enjoy your green bean salad - I love hearing what everyone is eating - makes me feel better about being u imaginative and boring with my own food choices Grin
I agree with @ListeningQuietly re skipping breakfast. It makes the numbers work much better on a fast day and for me, delays the flood gates opening. Never in a million years would I have thought I could miss a meal and not immediately keel over.

ginsparkles · 24/11/2020 13:48

Hello @Bottl and @ListeningQuietly Smile .... snacking is definitely my down fall on non fast days, but fast days i usually find ok. I tend not to eat until mid afternoon when I have a banana, then have something light for dinner. It went all wrong yesterday because I'm not getting home as late and the delay between getting home and dinner was too long 😂
All will be back to normal next week as the shop opens again YAY! So I will be able to fast on the days I'm at work.

Looked at the meal plan for this week, have a veggie sausage casserole and mash planned for tomorrow. So I reckon if I skip breakfast, have a salad as a late lunch and then just the sausage casserole that should be able right calorie wise. So I'm going for tdee today and I'll attempt a fast tomorrow! I may have to take the dog out every time if get the urge to snack!

Bottl · 24/11/2020 13:51

Sounds like a good plan, @ginsparkles - I love sausage casserole!!

ginsparkles · 24/11/2020 13:54

Me too! It'll be the first time doing it with meat free sausages! DD (8) went veggie last month so we are trying new things! Certainly helps keep the calorie count down!

Bottl · 24/11/2020 14:53

Let us know how that goes. I tried various vege sausages for one of my childminded children a few years ago but can never remember which brand everyone gave the thumbs up to.

cerealkillah · 24/11/2020 15:12

What do you all use for calculating calories? I've tried MFP but it's not that user friendly. I've resorted to a simple google search.

ListeningQuietly · 24/11/2020 15:37

cereal
I have always found MFP OK
but in the old days I used to write it down in a book (eg 145 g of cooked penne) and then do all the calories twice a day from the WW book

the main thing is to weigh not estmate WinkSmile

Bottl · 24/11/2020 15:45

@cerealkillah - I used to use mfp but a long time ago. When I tried to use it again it had changed and I didn't like it. I've also used 'track my fast' app which is much less judgy than mfp Grin.
I'm not currently using anything and am eating the same old boring meals on fds because I know how much I can have. I have a lot to lose so at this stage my unorthodox method will be ok but I'm going to have to pull my socks up soon and concentrate properly on the numbers.

KylieKoKo · 24/11/2020 16:40

On fast days I always eat miso soup, salad and a boiled egg which I know is about 140-150 and then varie between a few meals that I know are 370 or lower.

If I want to try something new or change something up I use my fitness Pal to check.

I've learnt foods that I like and are low calorie and filling as base my fast day meals on them

NibbleQueen · 24/11/2020 16:41

What do people like to eat on NFD?

Today wasn't too bad for me so far. I did have some sweet treats this afternoon, probably about 200 cals worth of them.
Am on track for 1300cals today, which is about 80% of my happy weight TDEE

Also, does anyone have tips for running on FD? I want to go for a run tomorrow as I'm just starting out and want to keep the habit 💪

ginsparkles · 24/11/2020 16:48

I use nutracheck to track my calories, it's been updated recently to allow for 5:2 (gets upset when I go 4:3!)

Non fast days I tend to eat pretty much normally, when I'm trying to maintain I eat whatever I like but when (like now!) I'm attempting to shift some weight (thanks lockdown baking!!) I try to stay on or under my tdee.

Non fast day for me today, I had branflakes with fruit, hummus, mini cheddars and some fruit at lunch, and we have gammon, new potatoes, cauliflower cheese and peas for tea. With room for a small pudding (yoghurt or something similar) I'll come in around 1600 today which is my tdee.

KylieKoKo · 24/11/2020 17:04

@nibblequeen

I don't count on my non fast days. I'm not drinking in the week and focussing on eating home cooked meals (not takeaways) and trying to avoid crisps abs5 biscuits. I'm also doing live streamed gym classes 5 times a week and making an effort to walk more. Doing this I've lost 9.8 pounds in two months. I could probably have lost more if I was stricter with myself on non fast days.

ListeningQuietly · 24/11/2020 17:46

Nibble
Fasted exercise is fine
I always go to the gym when its open in the morning, before I've eaten anything
remember that you are carrying at least 10,000 spare calories across the back of your hips
you won't run out Grin

Coffeeandcookies · 24/11/2020 17:58

Question:

Can anyone think of any reason why I might weigh myself one evening at 6pm at the end of a FD, eat or drink nothing, then weigh myself the following morning at 7am wearing exactly the same, scales in the same place (hard floor, battery full) and weigh 4lbs more in the morning?

The obvious explanation is that my scales are inaccurate, but is there any other possible explanation? I'm just intrigued as to whether it's biologically possible to put weight on without ingesting anything.

Or am I sleepwalking to my fridge...

ListeningQuietly · 24/11/2020 18:36

My chemistry is not good enough to explain the metabolic pathways
but remember that trees are built out of carbon extracted from the air
it is possible
but dodgy scales are more likely

Coffeeandcookies · 24/11/2020 19:07

I'm doomed if I'm extracting weight from thin air. I think I'll go with the dodgy scales.

Darker · 24/11/2020 19:08

Coffee, sleepwalking to the fridge or snack drawer... ?

moonlight1705 · 24/11/2020 21:52

Good mini for me at 995 calories today. I've even watched bake off without getting the munchies so that has got to be a win Grin

Another mini tomorrow with omelette for lunch and beef stew for dinner.

Hope you all did well on this cold Tuesday

KateMAB · 25/11/2020 07:23

Hi yesterday all went according to plan food wise and I passed my first aid course so very happy bunny.