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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread number 93: Drive in the fasting lane to goal !

974 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 22/10/2020 18:53

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" to maintain on the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally"
means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had past diagnosed Eating Disorders or serious MH problems you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, clothes size

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below if you need a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp
Rough Calories for NFD: Mosely TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Goal Weight For BodyFrame
Calc
Body Fat: BFat Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body types ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate]]

Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Units Cals

FD Recipes:
Mosely LowCarb , low carb Diet Doc
BBC Good Food 200-400 cal meals

BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
5:2 meal plans & recipes , Foodie Under 200 Cals
Vegetarian ,
FD Ready Meals & Fast Food

Any Day:
Meal Planner

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.
  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid sugar or fruit juice. e.g. Stir-fries, soups & stews. Ready meals are OK.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

OP posts:
Thread gallery
6
moonlight1705 · 03/11/2020 09:41

Lovely NSV darker Smile

I'm back on my FD today and got shakshuka for lunch then fishcakes for dinner.

I've done MFP religiously every day since Saturday and I can totally see why I have not lost weight. Even before adding on wine or a nice biscuit for after dinner then I had got nearly 2000 calories from just the types of food we were eating ie baked camembert for lunch and steak for dinner.

I am going to work on midweek nonFDs to start and then work on the weekend days.

Darker · 03/11/2020 09:42

For online stuff i recommend London Buddhist Centre for yoga as well as meditation. Free videos on youtube.

ListeningQuietly · 03/11/2020 09:47

Darker
I will check them out.

Moonlight
Permanently calorie counting is a drag but, yes, it can be quite a shock when you actually weigh your portions and add in the nibbles

THere was a very old system for mentally tracking that ran

Monday = 500 calories
Tuesday = sedentary TDEE less 10%
Wednesday = sedentary TDEE less 10%
Thursday = 500 calories
Friday = TDEE
Saturday = sod that, its Saturday
Sunday = TDEE

which allows a happy life cut creates a significant calorie deficit
therefore it works Smile

harriethoyle · 03/11/2020 09:55

Yeah it's quite sobering isn't it @moonlight1705? Calorie estimating is NEVER accurate. I'm currently tracking my weekday NFD with my tdee set at -20%. I figure that plus 2 FDs offsets my weekends.

Today I've had Greek yogurt and granola for breakfast, eggs on toast planned for lunch and baked sea bass, veg and baby boils for tea. Comes in c.1300 calories and should leave me nicely satisfied.

moonlight1705 · 03/11/2020 10:02

Definitely sobering, I also find that if I have had a big weekend of eating then Monday comes around and I constantly want to eat. It meant yesterday was more than I had hoped.

My FD normally kick starts the week again!

Petronelle · 03/11/2020 10:12

Listening do you recommend the occasional sedentary -10% TDEE during the week to allow for a more relaxed weekend?

I am going to check in for another FD today. It should be easy enough as I have a very upset stomach. I am coeliac and I think I was glutend yesterday evening as I was in pain and discomfort all night. I made waffles for the kids yesterday and suspect a little flour cross contamination. Rarely happens but when it does lots of liquid, broth and little solid food with some Buscopan helps.

Have a good day everyone.

ListeningQuietly · 03/11/2020 10:18

Petronelle
do you recommend the occasional sedentary -10% TDEE during the week to allow for a more relaxed weekend?
Its what I do when I'm being strict as then it does mean that you can have a nice takeaway or something at the weekend, while still staying on track.

Also
its worth working out what your TDEE will be at happy weight as that is what you will be working with long term
mine is 1500 calories !

MadauntofA · 03/11/2020 10:26

@ListeningQuietly

Petronelle do you recommend the occasional sedentary -10% TDEE during the week to allow for a more relaxed weekend? Its what I do when I'm being strict as then it does mean that you can have a nice takeaway or something at the weekend, while still staying on track.

Also
its worth working out what your TDEE will be at happy weight as that is what you will be working with long term
mine is 1500 calories !

I've just checked and mine is 1560 at my happy weight, sedentary levelShock I probably need to up my exercise long term to give myself a bit more leeway!
MadauntofA · 03/11/2020 10:43

As well as the health benefits obviously!!

ListeningQuietly · 03/11/2020 10:48

Madaunt
TDEE drops with both weight and age
so its really important to realise that the only way to not get middle age spread is to eat less and move more

boring but true Grin

MadauntofA · 03/11/2020 11:50

@ListeningQuietly

Madaunt TDEE drops with both weight and age so its really important to realise that the only way to not get middle age spread is to eat less and move more

boring but true Grin

It's quite depressing isn't it!
KylieKoKo · 03/11/2020 16:18

baked camembert for lunch and steak for dinner

@moonlight1705 those are two of my favourite things.

I have shifted my usual Wednesday fast day to Thursday so DP and I can have a "last supper" at our favourite local tapas restaurant. I fear that it won't be around after lockdown as it is family run and the last one hit them hard. After that it is booze free until 2nd December.

I have booked onto a few LiveStreamed gym classes and am determined to keep up my routine. I am aiming for at least 2 HIIT and 2 Strength and Conditioning classes per week. I think this should be easily dooable as I won't be going out anywhere anyway.

moonlight1705 · 03/11/2020 18:59

kylie when I was pregnant it was steak I missed the most. I eat it practically raw so didn't want to risk it or eat overcooked cardboard.

Dinner is cooking now but I'm so happy to be on 540 today, really felt the hunger pangs but resisted! Fishcakes and peas now and then a cuppa to finish off.

ListeningQuietly · 03/11/2020 19:16

moonlight
When I was pregnant I had fruits de mer followed by steak tartare on holiday in France
I told my midwife afterwards Wink

Petronelle · 04/11/2020 05:54

Morning all. I survived my 2nd FD yesterday and weighed in this morning at 84.5 which is 900g down from my Monday morning weight. Now it is fair to say that this was helped by how unwell I was yesterday but I'll take it is a decent start. Now I am off to recalculate my TDEE and I will aim for that today -10% and hope that I don't need to comfort eat. Have a great day everyone.

MadauntofA · 04/11/2020 06:20

Well done Petronelle, you soon get into a routine and it get easier.
FD here today. Who's joining me?

robertsmithscorpsebride · 04/11/2020 08:35

Morning All, just coming on quickly to say FD yesterday, not great at about 750 but I was so cold I nearly caved in completely!!!

Got a busy day but will try and log on and read through what I've missed, NFD today and next FD on friday, good luck weds fasters Grin

ListeningQuietly · 04/11/2020 09:22

Comfort Eating
does not give comfort, it creates stress later.

If you have to be chewing something, make it raw veg - carrots, peppers, tomatoes, or apples or citrus.
Stuff you have to chew and peel to slow yourself down.

harriethoyle · 04/11/2020 09:58

I am @MadauntofA - hoping to push through to supper which is chilli con carne and heaps of broccoli.

Down to my lowest weight since 9 July this morning and if I lose on this FD will be at my lowest weight this year. Happy with that! Although it pains me, upping my alcohol free days to 4 a week has been a huge part of this. And it's doing my MH good too. But it's MUCH less fun! Grin

Bottl · 04/11/2020 10:04

Morning everyone.
FD for me too.
I made carrot and coriander soup yesterday in preparation and plan to make some kind of tomato/mince based something for this evening.

I've bought two big broccoli trees and going to rice them later. Anyone have any soup recipes for the stalks that don't involve Stilton (or any other cheese) please?

MadauntofA · 04/11/2020 10:33

That's fantastic Harriet! Bottl, I just peel the stalks and pan fry - they are much better in my opinion than the rest of the broccoli!!
Miso soup for lunch and a small apple, then veg stir fried with a poached egg for dinner with a duck bao bun on the side.

Bottl · 04/11/2020 11:35

Thanks, @MadauntofA, I'll try that.

cerealkillah · 04/11/2020 12:03

FD for me today. I'm also going out tonight, but will only drink Diet Coke or sparkling water.

harriethoyle · 04/11/2020 16:37

How's everyone getting on? Chilli con carne is on the hob as I type and I managed to push through to (an admittedly early!) tea without eating anything. Which means I can have some rice with it! Kitchen should close c.550 cals...

ListeningQuietly · 04/11/2020 17:44

I had hoped to be having champagne tonight to celebrate the election result
but it will have to stay in the fridge for at least another two days ....

so its baked salmon and veg with a side salad and some pasta
lunch was a beef sandwich with home made chutney on wholemeal
and I did loads at the gym this morning

LOTS of brisk walking in the sunshine beckons over the next few days