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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread number 93: Drive in the fasting lane to goal !

974 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 22/10/2020 18:53

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" to maintain on the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally"
means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had past diagnosed Eating Disorders or serious MH problems you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, clothes size

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below if you need a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp
Rough Calories for NFD: Mosely TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Goal Weight For BodyFrame
Calc
Body Fat: BFat Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body types ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate]]

Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Units Cals

FD Recipes:
Mosely LowCarb , low carb Diet Doc
BBC Good Food 200-400 cal meals

BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
5:2 meal plans & recipes , Foodie Under 200 Cals
Vegetarian ,
FD Ready Meals & Fast Food

Any Day:
Meal Planner

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.
  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid sugar or fruit juice. e.g. Stir-fries, soups & stews. Ready meals are OK.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

OP posts:
Thread gallery
6
Coffeeandcookies · 30/10/2020 07:40

Morning all! FD for me today, Amy other Friday fasters?

@ListeningQuietly, I am really glad you have stepped in to provide advice and support in place of BigChoc, thank you. I didn't have the pleasure of getting to know you previously as I've only started 5:2 a few months ago, but I was worried when BigChoc said she was stepping back from the thread as she was such a great help with her informative and supportive messages. However you have continued to offer the same supportive help and I think the tone you have set is perfect, thank you for taking over and leading our merry little band of fasters!

robertsmithscorpsebride · 30/10/2020 08:45

Morning all, fd here too coffee and bottl Smile

Good luck for your weigh in today moon

listening I am very grateful for you stepping in and keeping us all on our fasting toes 👍

Wishing everyone a happy Friday, I am off with ds today, going to sort out his toy cupboard, eek! Then bake a cake for ddog who turns 13 tomorrow 🐶

Cheeeeislifenow · 30/10/2020 08:49

Hello everyone, keeping myself accountable, yesterday was a FD but I ended up on725 cals, not the end of the world. Today is NFD and I am genuinely hungry this morning so having chia seed pudding, it's pb flavoured!! Yum. Hope you all have a lovely day!!

Darker · 30/10/2020 10:08

FD today. 3rd of the week.

ListeningQuietly · 30/10/2020 10:40

Morning all
is the weather as grim where you are as it is here?

Just remember
NO SNACKING
Check you are not Thirsty rather than Hungry - a glass of water and a 5 minute wait ....

And if in doubt, do some indoors exercise like standing on one leg
as standing up all day uses 800 more calories than sitting Grin

Bottl · 30/10/2020 12:39

@Petronelle - sounds like you managed your takeaway well. Ds and I are havi one tomorrow but can't decide which to go for.
@robertsmithscorpsebride - aw, doggy birthday cake!!
@Cheeeeislifenow - well done on yesterday's FD. How was your breakfast?
@ListeningQuietly - I can frequently be found standing on one leg - usually because a toddler has challenged me to Grin
@Darker - 3rd for me too
How's everyone getting on today?
I'm halfway through my second coffee. Spent the morning sending out invoices and now my brain hurts.
Wasn't feeling hungry until I looked at the clock and saw it was midday and now all I can think about is food.
Going to put some washing on to try to distract myself.

robertsmithscorpsebride · 30/10/2020 15:38

I know I'm a sucker.... I also wrap her present 🤣🤣🤣 she loves nothing more than getting to open a present, on xmas day we have to let her open hers first or we dont get any peace to open ours!

I've been so busy today that I haven't eaten yet.... will wait until dinner now I reckon

ListeningQuietly · 30/10/2020 15:49

robertsmith
Our cats each get a tin of pilchards in tomato sauce for their birthdays and Christmas Grin

harriethoyle · 30/10/2020 16:33

@ListeningQuietly i think you're top notch Wine

Had SUCH a frustrating day today! But nsv include just getting coffee and not adding a pastry from the station cafe this morning, walking to and from the train to work and not getting a snickers when I popped out to get the kids some American candy at lunchtime. Baby steps!

ListeningQuietly · 30/10/2020 16:38

harriet
not getting a pastry is a MASSIVE victory.
We are so conditioned to treat ourselves
when in fact not eating high sugar, high carb processed stuff
and saving the stomach space for something yummy
is the real treat

)))) American Candy (((((
Last time we were over there my kids went low sugar until they could get home to Dairy Milk Wink Grin

cerealkillah · 30/10/2020 16:50

I have a question: can you fast more than 2 days a week? I've done two already this week and due to weigh on Monday. I was thinking of doing another on Sunday.
My thoughts after the first 5 days:

  • Fasting isn't too bad at all, I have been quite excited by my fast days.
  • I have found myself less hungry in the mornings so far. Today I had berries, yogurt and a small amount (about 25g) of granola.
  • I've also found myself much less inclined to snack.

I have just bought a countdown for SW. I've not been following that at all. I'll still go to weigh in. It'll be interesting to see what happens.

Hope you all have a lovely Friday evening.

ListeningQuietly · 30/10/2020 16:57

cereal
can you fast more than 2 days a week?
YUP
Its called "Alternate Day fasting" or ADF
And its been around for a very long time
BUT
Its hard work as you need to monitor micronutrients REALLY closely
and for those losing weight its less good as a lead into maintaining.

In the original TV programme, Michael Mosely met and interviewed some long term ADF adherents.
They were very lean and fit but somewhat lacking in the sense of humour department. Smile

For you, if you fancy it, go for it, but remember that
there is no such thing as a failed fast day
just a fast day deferred Grin

so if you get to 1pm and think sod it, I'm hungry
then eat what your body needs.

cerealkillah · 30/10/2020 17:29

Thanks @ListeningQuietly that's really helpful. Maybe I'm just being too enthusiastic. I'll stick to two days a week for now. I already feel less bloated and less hungry. And it's not even been a week yet.

Darker · 30/10/2020 17:39

Cereal I'm doing Mon/Wed/Fri as fast days and that's working really well for me. I'm hoping it will get me into my favourite jeans a bit quicker.

Coffeeandcookies · 30/10/2020 18:38

Scrambled eggs with tomato and red pepper for lunch, small baked potato with baked beans for dinner, about a gallon of coffee and 3 pints of water. Calorie total is 547 at present. How are you getting on Bottl, cereal, Darker and robert?

robertsmithscorpsebride · 30/10/2020 19:02

Well done coffee that sounds like a good Fd day of food

Kitchen closed at 505, had quorn lasagne (350) with salad and a satsuma. Will have a coffee later.

Bottl · 30/10/2020 19:17

I had a bit of a blip mid-afternoon but am trying not to totally unravel.

I'm doing the same as Darker. I have a lot to lose and wanted to have a good headstart.

On the sense-of-humour-o-meter - I think I'm hilarious, others maybe not so much Grin. I'm definitely not lean and fit though (yet)

Cancangirlie · 30/10/2020 20:08

I was wondering if you could offer me advice. I was an avid 5:2 er just after Michael Mosely's Horizon. Lost over a stone and a half in 6 months. Then i got married... You can guess the rest! Back in March I had some bloodtests as was feeling under the weather. Got the results over the phone week before lockdown began.. My cholesterol and sugar levels were high. That and the media coverage of obesity being a high Covid risk factor spurned me on to think about my eating habits. I have been doing daily 18:6 fasting for several months. I force myself to drink water. Ive been focusing on short term goals eg getting from obese to over weight, moving my bmi down a point, then another. It has been going really well. My bmi has dropped from 32 to 28. That's 23lbs for me. 2 weeks ago weight loss stopped! No matter how little i eat i can't seen too loose any more. Im 53 and a good way into menopause. Has anyone else experienced this and if so can you give me some tips on what i could try next?

ListeningQuietly · 30/10/2020 20:22

Hi there cancan
What you need to do first is to use MFP to work out EXACTLY what you eat.
No skimping, no hiding, weigh everything,
32 to 28 is an amazing start
BUT
you need to work out the sedentary TDEE for your happy weight and work to that.

From the old days you might remember the weekly plan :

Monday : 500 calories
Tuesday : TDEE less 10%
Wednesday : TDEE less 10%
Thursday : 500 calories
Friday : TDEE less 10%
Saturday : sod that, its Saturday
Sunday : TDEE

That way happy weight lies Grin

KylieKoKo · 30/10/2020 21:46

@Cancangirlie

I don't think you should be too discouraged by only 2 weeks of no loss. Weight can fluctuate and you might have lost fat but be retaining a bit more water. Are you excercising at all?

ListeningQuietly · 30/10/2020 22:04

Also, weight change is not quick

I can get away with a week of rather excessive Gin if I work out
but a month
pah

Cancangirlie · 30/10/2020 22:05

Thanks for your replies. I'm not particularly active approx 7000steps a day at work. I have a dodgy knee so when i was trying to get to 10000 steps a day I found I was limping and in pain the next day. But that sounds like it could be part of my problem. I need to find some exercise that doesn't involve my knees. I should have come to find you wise bunch at the start. I didn't think to measure myself. I can feel that all my clothes are looser but measurements would be reassuring. I will do that tomorrow. Still have 1st and 9lbs to get my bmi marginally before 25. Also I've been estimating my calories. I try to eat 800 - 1000 in my 6 hour window 6 days a week. Sunday i have an 8 hour eating window. Thank you again for giving me plenty to think about. Flowers

KylieKoKo · 31/10/2020 01:13

Maybe you could try swimming or even something like water aerobics @Cancangirlie. It wouldn't put pressure on your knees and would build strength in them so you get less pain from walking.

harriethoyle · 31/10/2020 07:09

Never estimate your calories @Cancangirlie - you will be consuming far more than you realise! Download mfp and use that religiously for a week and I bet you'll see a loss

moonlight1705 · 31/10/2020 08:22

Wise words harriet I need to do that myself. I've lost precisely zilch over the last two weeks and have had some really good FDs. It must be my non FDs that are the issue so will try and religiously note down calories.

My TDEE is 2100 a day so perhaps I ought to make it 1800 on some days to see if that helps.