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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread number 92: Don’t train to be skinny Train to be a lean bad ass. Come join the bad asses

999 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 06/08/2020 15:19

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" to maintain on the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally"
means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had past diagnosed Eating Disorders or serious MH problems you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, clothes size

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below if you need a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp
Rough Calories for NFD: Mosely TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Goal Weight For BodyFrame
Calc
Body Fat: BFat Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body types ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate]]

Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Units Cals

FD Recipes:
Mosely LowCarb , low carb Diet Doc
BBC Good Food 52 , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Foodie Under 200 Cals
Vegetarian ,

FD Ready Meals, Fast Food

Any Day:
Meal Planner

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.
  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid sugar or fruit juice. e.g. Stir-fries, soups & stews. Ready meals are OK.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

OP posts:
Thread gallery
13
BigChocFrenzy · 15/08/2020 09:51

starting !

OP posts:
1questionshootout · 15/08/2020 12:05

There'll be some staring at the scales and tape measure in horror!

Shopping bought, photoed, listed and put away. This was expensive, but there's a lot of storecupboard and handy packs, including tinned ratatouille, kimchi, and lovely lentil pouches.

annabell22 · 15/08/2020 12:09

Welcome back @syncope that's great progress

Bizarrely (although maybe it was due to my HIIT treadmill session yesterday PM) I had a new low on the scale this morning, which means that I am now (by a whisker) a lower weight than I was at any point in 2019 and the later months of 2018 Grin Back at work on 24 August so looking forward to sliding easily into my 'old' work clothes as well as some new outfits. And I haven't even done a FD this week!

BigChocFrenzy · 15/08/2020 17:11

That's an encouraging milestone SV, Annabell
Try to stay focused on your WOL and the incentive of comfy work clothes

Oh dear, I just found a packet of cheese fondue with expiry Feb 2020 Blush in the depths of my admittedly huge US Fridge
Even the box had changed to an alarming blue, so was immediately binned
I had just come back from shopping after gym - 2 hours with the Demon Norman - so I've plenty of everything fortunately

OP posts:
MacavityTheDentistsCat · 16/08/2020 17:34

Well, it's quiet here today! Am just making fish cakes, tomato sauce and asparagus for the family and will then be settling down for an hour of cuddling with next door's cat Grin while I worry that Croatia will be next to be put on the risk list and my forthcoming holiday there will be cancelled Angry.

1question Handhold for the measurements! I'm also due to do mine. In theory, I do them once a month on the 15th but I often have to work up the courage. But photos? No way! Much too hardcore! Grin

1questionshootout · 16/08/2020 18:51

Thanks Macavity, I’m feeling super brave now!

I bought 2 tubs of crab meat, one just white, the other a mix if brown and white. There’s a big difference in calories! Just shows you have to read the labels.

I made a crab and mushroom pasta tonight ( non fasting), and prepped a crab salad for lunch tomorrow, with a tomato and feta soup for dinner. I have some psyllium husks to use up, and might use them with coconut flour to make low carb flatbreads.

Coffeeandcookies · 16/08/2020 19:24

I hope people don't mind me posting when I haven't anything specific to report, but I've found this thread really valuable with great information and support. I've never fasted before, but with the guidance and answers here, as well as the accountability when I'm recording meals and results here I've felt confident with planning FDs and understanding how to do them. So thank you everyone and BigChoc in particular!

I'm currently 1lb off what had been my initial target weight, but it was always set as an achievable first goal. Next target is another 5lb off which will be a 2 stone weight loss in total. Then after that my next target is to move from the overweight to the normal BMI category which will be a further 10lb off. Writing it here makes me determined to achieve it!!

Planning my FDs for this week, Tue and Thurs for me, good luck to those who are fasting tomorrow!

BigChocFrenzy · 16/08/2020 21:31

Excellent progress, Coffee and so near to your next minigoals

Question Do be very moderate with the psyllium husk, or it can cause bloating, flatulance etc
Guidelines generally are no more than 15g per day
Drink lots of water with it, or you can become constipated

I hope your holiday is ok, Macavity or that they'll let you postpone it to next year
ECDC has 14-day incidence for Croatia of almost 30 / 100,000 which looks ominous
(UK is 19, Germany 16 / 100,000 so either may put Croatia on the quarantine list in the next few days)

OP posts:
MadauntofA · 17/08/2020 06:54

Morning all, welcome to those who are new. Some great progress happening on this board!! My scales are slowly creeping down, but I can definitely see a change in my body, and energy levels are good.
FD here today. I found a lovely food at the weekend which was v quick to prepare, and only 100cals/ bun

5:2 Thread number 92: Don’t train to be skinny Train to be a lean bad ass. Come join the bad asses
1questionshootout · 17/08/2020 07:30

Thanks for the warning about psyllium - the recipe has 2 tbsps in 6 flatbreads, and I intend to freeze some so that I'm not eating it every day.

Beautiful3 · 17/08/2020 10:39

Hi, I'm fasting today, who's with me?

BigChocFrenzy · 17/08/2020 12:51

Good luck on your FD, MadAUnt, Beaut and any other Monday fasters

Well done on your SV and inches NSV, MadAunt
You're on your way !

That amount should be absolutely no problem, Question

OP posts:
AllTheFields · 17/08/2020 13:46

Hello. May I join? I lost 2 st a few years ago doing 5:2 (though I did a bastardised version of up to 800 cals on FDs as couldn't cope with 500). I'm now nudging 12st which for my height (5ft3) is shocking. I'd like to lose 3st in total.

Have started again today.

For lunch had tzatziki made with 0% fat yoghurt, 2 hard boiled eggs and a tomato, parsley and caper salad (dressed with lemon juice and salt).

For dinner I intend to have a tuna steak with red cabbage and carrot lime salad.

I'm very hungry right now and could use some moral support :)

BigChocFrenzy · 17/08/2020 13:55

Welcome, Fields 🙂 and good luck

I recommend you keep to the 800FD WOL if it worked for you before, at least while you get used to fasting again.

It's better to have slower loss that you can sustain for months, rather than crashing out after a couple of weeks on something too strict

OP posts:
AllTheFields · 17/08/2020 14:20

Thank you BigChoc. I'm definitely using 800 cals as a "maximum" rather than an aim - hopefully I'll come in at less most days. Just gives me a bit of leeway to have an apple or something if I'm starving.

annabell22 · 17/08/2020 15:28

Welcome @AllTheFields hope this works well for you - I'm also a returner, not as much to lose but have found 5:2 more effective than anything else I've ever tried. I've now lost over a stone Grin

Coffeeandcookies · 17/08/2020 18:22

Hello Fields and welcome! I'm relatively new to fasting so can't offer you as much advice as some of the more experienced people on this thread, but one thing I've discovered with fasting is that my appetite reduces when I don't eat snacks. On my FDs if I get hungry I have a large glass of water and that's usually enough to see me through to the next meal. If I let myself eat something I get hungrier quicker.

Good luck, you can do this!!

MadauntofA · 17/08/2020 19:31

Kitchen closed here at 530. Porridge planned for tomorrow breakfast!
Fields, I'd also echo Coffee - snacking doesn't help with hunger on FDs, drink water or herbal tea. Saving calories for 2 or even 1 meal works well. Your food plan for today sounds lovely!

MacavityTheDentistsCat · 17/08/2020 20:16

Well done Madaunt. You've certainly earned tomorrow's porridge.

I've had a bit of a weird day myself. I only slept two hours last night so was completely zonked at the gym this morning. I managed two rounds of weights then looked at the cardio machines and just decided that I had no motivation ... and promptly left Blush. Am hoping that I'll feel a bit livelier and more motivated on Wednesday morning. Meanwhile, tomorrow is a FD so I need to gird my loins for that.

MadauntofA · 17/08/2020 20:33

Lack of sleep is a killer Macavity, I remember being a complete zombie for the first couple of years with DDs. I'm impressed you managed two rounds of weights though! Good luck for your FD tomorrow

BigChocFrenzy · 17/08/2020 20:48

Well done on your FD, Madaunt

Fields It's best to avoid fruit on its own, even on FDs - have it with protein
A good FD minimeal, which is filling for the calories, is a boiled egg or a slice of chicken breast

Probably most important tip from Mosely & many other intermittent fasting experts:
No snacking / grazing on NFDs
even at weekends or on holiday - eat meals, nothing between
Even "healthy" snacks like fruit or nuts keep insulin raised and hinder weight loss

Also, plan to get a full night's sleep
Lack of sleep raises the stress hormone cortisol, which hinders fat loss, especially around the stomach.
So I recommend an early night if you can, Macavity

OP posts:
Beautiful3 · 17/08/2020 21:40

Welcome new comers. Today was a burst. Try again tomorrow.

BigChocFrenzy · 17/08/2020 23:04

Never mind, Beaut
Better luck tomorrow

OP posts:
MacavityTheDentistsCat · 18/08/2020 07:09

Morning all!

I'm fasting today too Beaut! Come join me. There's strength in numbers Wink.

1questionshootout · 18/08/2020 07:09

Plugging in my meal plans to MFP, and I'm puzzled by the wide range of values for beansprouts! Any suggestions?