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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread number 92: Don’t train to be skinny Train to be a lean bad ass. Come join the bad asses

999 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 06/08/2020 15:19

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" to maintain on the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally"
means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had past diagnosed Eating Disorders or serious MH problems you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, clothes size

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below if you need a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp
Rough Calories for NFD: Mosely TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Goal Weight For BodyFrame
Calc
Body Fat: BFat Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body types ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate]]

Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Units Cals

FD Recipes:
Mosely LowCarb , low carb Diet Doc
BBC Good Food 52 , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Foodie Under 200 Cals
Vegetarian ,

FD Ready Meals, Fast Food

Any Day:
Meal Planner

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.
  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid sugar or fruit juice. e.g. Stir-fries, soups & stews. Ready meals are OK.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

OP posts:
Thread gallery
13
FlyingByTheSeatof · 13/10/2020 20:54

Kitchen closed on 764.

Well done Tuesday fasters.

MadauntofA · 13/10/2020 21:14

Well done Tuesday fasters. Glad you are feeling better Bottl.
Talking about the joys of hormones - anyone got any tips for 5am waking. I don't think it is fasting related, as it happens most mornings, but really fed up with it. No problems getting off to sleep, and not a "need a wee" issue as I seem to have adapted to drinking more. I take a good multivitamin but I'm definitely peri menopausal so think that is it, or is anyone else having the same issue?

inthethickofit19 · 13/10/2020 22:02

@Whattodowithaminute yes I've been here on and off since 2018 (had my second in 2019).

So sorry for your loss @harriethoyle what happened? Take good care of yourself and I'm in awe that you managed to continue with 5:2

I managed a FD yesterday and weighed myself this morning - down from 10 stone to 9st 11.8lbs so that was encouraging. Even though I know it's just excess water. Nearly caved in and went over NFD calories today but I stayed strong 💪

Coffeeandcookies · 13/10/2020 22:32

FD done, finished on 592 which is quite an achievement when I put myself through the temptation of watching Bake Off on TV this evening! Cake I should really stop planning FDs for Tuesdays until the series is finished Grin

Good luck to Wednesday fasters tomorrow!

BigChocFrenzy · 14/10/2020 02:14

Congratulations on your SV, inthethick
and on managing a sensible NFD today

Excellent b2b,what

Well done on your FD too, Moonlight, flying, coffee

MadAUnt Getting older, entering peri / meno can change your circadian rhythms

To get enough sleep, have you tried going to bed earlier - or do you then wake up even earlier ?

You may have become more sensitive to caffeine, not just in coffee or coke, but even tea - and also chocolate !
Something to try: avoid coffee or coke after 3pm and avoid tea or chocolate after say 6pm

Check you haven't unknowingly changed to a drink that includes caffeine in its ingredients

Alcohol late at night can cause you to wake up early

  • it may increase the chances you’ll fall asleep quickly, but after the toxic byproducts have been processed, the timing could result in stimulant effects very early in the morning.
OP posts:
MadauntofA · 14/10/2020 06:19

Bigchoc, I've tried an earlier bedtime, but then it shifted to 4am wake up. I have 1 coffee and 1 tea at breakfast, then the rest are decafs. I rarely have alcohol. Chocolate I hadn't thought about though!!! The only other thing I suppose is that I tend to eat my evening meal around 6-7, to eat with DDs, avoid snacking at 5, but also I feel much better having a few hours to digest before bed. Maybe I'm hungry? I think I need to keep a diary and see whether it is certain foods/ lack of which makes it worse - I slept well last night, and my meal probably had more good fats (avocado, mackerel salad with olive oil etc)

robertsmithscorpsebride · 14/10/2020 08:54

wow this thread is moving pretty quick..... been super busy at work and not had time to check in, just skimmed the pages quickly, so sorry for your loss harriet Flowers

FD today, i'm bloody freezing cold already - brrrrrr - soup probably for lunch, I have a ton of salad stuff to eat so probably a huge salad for dinner.

Good luck to anyone else fasting today Grin

BigChocFrenzy · 14/10/2020 11:32

Good luck, Robert and any other Wednesday fasters

madAunt It is good to have at least 3 hours between your last meal and bed, or the early stage of digestion can make you more alert and keep you awake

A short, gentle evening walk can help sometimes to relax, but aim to finish any vigorous exercise by 3 hours before bed

What you eat & drink for supper affects sleep
Research indicates that fatty fish - like your mackerel can improve sleep, with a small glass of milk, plus a kiwi fruit for pud

Fish consumption, sleep, daily functioning, and heart rate variability

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24812543/

Effects of Diet on Sleep Quality

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27633109/

OP posts:
KylieKoKo · 14/10/2020 14:22

I'm fasting again today. I've just had water, black coffee and herbal tea so far.

I've not felt hungry at all yet today, but then I did eat a burger last night so I'm probably still full from that.

I might try and skip my normal fast day lunch of miso soup and salad and just have my evening meal.

FlyingByTheSeatof · 14/10/2020 16:35

I'm ill and on antibiotics. I had to have a Covid test yesterday morning due to my symptoms the results of which I should find out tomorrow. I've been in bed most of the day but just had some chicken and veg and feel a bit better so it'll be NFD for the time being although my appetite has gone away due to wierd taste and smell at the moment amongst other things. I think it's more likely a bacterial sinus infection but you still have to have a covid test if you show symptoms and they've been documented, which at least means you can have the test and quickly too which in my case was within the hour.

KylieKoKo · 14/10/2020 16:35

Get well soon @FlyingByTheSeatof

Beautiful3 · 14/10/2020 17:05

I hope you feel better soon, flying.
My kitchens closed at 555. That's 3 back to back fasting days completed. Well done Wednesday fasters.

MadauntofA · 14/10/2020 17:53

Thank you for all the info Bigchoc. I'll have a read this evening.
I hope you feel better Flying, that sounds miserable.
Well done Beaut, I'm impressed at your 3 b2bs!
How are you getting on Kylie and Robert?

MadauntofA · 14/10/2020 17:53

Who's joining me for a FD tomorrow?

Bottl · 14/10/2020 18:21

Hope you feel better soon, flying.
Well done Wednesday fasters.
I was planning to fast on Friday but my friend has invited me round for dinner in the evening so I wonder if 2 minis would be ok instead.

robertsmithscorpsebride · 14/10/2020 18:40

Hope you feel better soon flying Flowers

Well done beaut 3 b2bs sound hardcore! Shock

All fine here mad fd finished on 503, I am so cold though ❄❄❄ going to run a hot bath I think.

bottl do you mean 1 fd and 2 minis? I would think that would work.... you cant refuse someone offering to cook for you!

Good luck for tomorrow mad and all the other Thursday fasters

KylieKoKo · 14/10/2020 19:44

I'm good thanks @BigChocFrenzy

I'm really relatively full (for now) after a prawn stir-fry with loads of veg.

Today has been my easiet fast day so far. I'm glad I can eat normally for the rest of the week though.

Good luck people fasting tomorrow.

KylieKoKo · 14/10/2020 19:45

@MadauntofA I meant to tag you in above, not @BigChocFrenzy

Bottl · 14/10/2020 20:10

@robertsmithscorpsebride - yes, I had a proper FD yesterday and will try and squeeze in 2 minis tomorrow and Friday. It's very rare that someone offers to cook for me, would be churlish to decline Grin

KylieKoKo · 14/10/2020 20:14

@Bottl I think the beauty of 5 2 is that you can switch days around to fit in things like that.

BigChocFrenzy · 14/10/2020 20:17

Take care of yourself and get well soon, Flying 💐
The loss of taste / smell does sound suspicious

Obviously, do NOT fast while ill and definitely not if you have, or may have, Covid

Well done on your FD today, Beaut, Robert , Kylie

Bottl Definitely move your FD
5:2 is sustainable because it is flexible enough to fit in with your social life

A miniFD has same rules as an FD - no junk or alcohol - so not easy when out with a mate
Can you fast tomorrow or Saturday ?

OP posts:
inthethickofit19 · 14/10/2020 22:30

Please remind me best time to record weight? Is it once a week after 2nd fast? I like weighing daily for the motivation but not sure how often to record.

inthethickofit19 · 14/10/2020 22:50

Another nfd under my belt Grin DH is back tomorrow so we will eat dinner together so my next fast will be Friday I think.

BigChocFrenzy · 14/10/2020 23:37

Good progress with NFDs, inthethick

Weigh under Consistent Conditions

My usual guide:

. The morning after the 2nd FD of each week, or every 2/4/6 weeks if you prefer
. First thing in the morning, naked, after loo but before first drink of water.
. Reliable scales, referably digital.
. Change batteries frequently, so always full power.
. Scales should be on a dry, level hard surface, not carpet
. Keep scales in exactly the same place every day. Type of flooring, slight slopes etc all affect things.
. After switching on, wait 3 secs before stepping on, because the scales need to calibrate.
. Don't jump on; step slowly on so that both feet are fully on
. Don't lean to one side or to the front /back.
. Keep still until you take the reading, no fidgeting or leaning

OP posts:
moonlight1705 · 15/10/2020 08:30

Morning, am joining on a FD today. Got another busy work day so hoping it will take my mind off food. I was so sleepy last night that I went to bed at 9.30 with a hot water bottle and a good book so feeling a bit more rested today.

Hope you are feeling better flying