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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread number 91: Keep calm and carry on to goal with our friendly support group

963 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 12/06/2020 22:41

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" to maintain on the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally"
means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had past diagnosed Eating Disorders or serious MH problems you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, clothes size

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below if you need a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp
Rough Calories for NFD: Mosely TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Goal Weight For BodyFrame
Calc
Body Fat: BFat Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body types ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate]]

Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Units Cals

FD Recipes:
Mosely LowCarb , low carb Diet Doc
BBC Good Food 52 , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Foodie Under 200 Cals
Vegetarian ,

FD Ready Meals, Fast Food

Any Day:
Meal Planner

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.
  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid sugar or fruit juice. e.g. Stir-fries, soups & stews. Ready meals are OK.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

OP posts:
Thread gallery
9
Upsidedownrightnow · 19/06/2020 12:34

also I was eating less than my tdee each day so that could of contributed to it.

NathanNathan · 19/06/2020 14:21

Hi @Upsidedownrightnow I do find there mini fast days MUCH easier.

Before this I did the Blood Sugar Diet of 800 cals and low carb principles. Eating low carb and high fat meant I adjusted to that well, and find 800 manageable. 500 just seems to make me overeat. So three fast days of 800 is what I'm doing.

I've seen it said a lot of times here and other places, apparently eating calories you count as burned off during exercise just doesn't work. Moseley says when calculating TDEE to count yourself as a level below you think you are.

I just count anything I exercise off as a bonus, but don't include in the general counting I do.

Smile
BigChocFrenzy · 19/06/2020 17:58

Upside Mosely recommends eating about your TDEE on NFDs, which I understand is 2,000

With 2,000 NFDs, you should lose about 1lb weekly longterm on 2 x 500 cal FDs or 3 miniFDs

That's a sensible rate of loss, which won't cause headaches

  • on NFDs you should not feel hungry, as these are maintenance days, not "diet days"

Sounds like your main problem is trying to undereat on NFDs, which eating 2,000 should stop
As well as this, try 3 miniFDs

OP posts:
robertsmithscorpsebride · 19/06/2020 18:23

Not the best fd today, ended up around 602cals, snaffled 2 rich tea biscuits 🙄 could have been worse though! Hope everyone else is doing well.

BigChocFrenzy · 19/06/2020 19:37

That's ok, Robert
Well done on your FD

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Beautiful3 · 19/06/2020 20:08

Kitchen closed at 609! Thankfully, I found today to be okay. Well done Friday fasters! Looking forward to having a bowl of porridge for breakfast tomorrow! I must say my nails have grown long and strong! Is this from fasting?

BigChocFrenzy · 19/06/2020 20:16

Well done, beaut
Some FDs just go smoothly

Fasting helps conditions related to insulin metabolism or to inflammation
and boosts cell regeneration,
but nothing specifically for nails Smile

If you've been following the 5:2 healthy guidelines, your body may have been getting more nutrients than before

  • you could have been a bit low on some things
OP posts:
Upsidedownrightnow · 19/06/2020 20:44

@BigChocFrenzy - I think I'm just worried to eat my full calories as i have been doing 5:2 since 1st may and I kept going up and down between 9.13 - 9.11 for ages, then i missed a couple of fd then was all the way upto 10.2.8.

I upped my exercise so i could up my tdee but then kind of worried what if my exercise isnt good enough for a moderately active tdee so i was trying to eat less just incase.

so now i have lost 4lbs in 10 days and its the only real loss i have had so far.

I think you are right i will try 3 mini fd next week and see how it goes.

@NathanNathan - i have no idea how you survived on 800cals per day i would have murdered someone...

moonlight1705 · 19/06/2020 20:48

Ended today on 641 calories so feeling pleased.

NathanNathan · 19/06/2020 21:58

It was actually ok! You get used to it, seems to be about keeping fat and protein high. Obviously short term only though, I was very ready to finish at the end of 7 weeks!

BigChocFrenzy · 20/06/2020 01:35

Well done,moonlight
You nailed it !

OP posts:
moonlight1705 · 20/06/2020 07:43

I knew I was going to put on this week as had a couple of binging days. I've put in 1kg which is very annoying so will start again today for a good week.

On the plus side, I knew I had overeaten and felt uncomfortable so my body is getting to know the signals... just got to train my mind now.

robertsmithscorpsebride · 20/06/2020 08:47

Well done on your fds beautiful and moonlight

It is very annoying moonlight but you knew you had and stepped on the scale anyway so I think that's really positive Smile good luck this week.

Nice first week whoosh of 4lbs for me Grin if only it was 4lbs every week!! Good luck to any weekend fasters

annabell22 · 20/06/2020 10:56

My weight after FD2 this week was 1.5kg down, and it has been stable since then, so I'm pleased with that, especially as we had dinner out yesterday. I had a salad but there was a lot of dressing and I followed it with a delicious vegan berry cheesecake but there was too much of that so I ate about 2/3.

Next week I'll fast on Sunday (working day for me) and Tuesday.

Does anyone know a good routine or video for improving flexibility? I have loads of stamina and toned legs thanks to all the running and walking but if I bend over my fingertips only just make it past mid-calf!

Beautiful3 · 20/06/2020 11:39

Thanks BigChocFrenzy and Robertsmithcorpsebride. Well done moonlight for weighing yourself. Something I'm not brave enough to do yet! We all have a bad week sometimes. You'll get it off in no time at all

Beautiful3 · 20/06/2020 11:40

Well done Robertsmithcorpsebride for your 4lb loss! Wow that's good!

BigChocFrenzy · 20/06/2020 12:52

Congratulations on your SV, Robert
Excellent start

Moonlight Focus this coming week on sensible NFDs and nailing your FDs
and you'll get right back on the weight loss track

Also, it's human, but don't have a fuck-it weekend after the scales;
stay sensible so it's only a kg to haul back from Monday
A couple of good WE NFDs - and a couple of good dumps ! - may get rid of some of that
as it won't all be fat - probably mostly retained water from excess carbs plus undigested food

Drink plenty of water, which will help

I'm having my usual Saturday miniFD
Anyone else ?

Another glorious sunny day, with the Rhine sparkling below me and everyone out in boats, bikes or on foot to enjoy it Smile
I'm off for a walk now, then pump class this afternoon

OP posts:
annabell22 · 21/06/2020 10:46

Since FD2, I stayed the same for three days then dropped again this morning, before I'd even started my FD1 for this week! That's 1.7kg in a week, which is more than I've lost in the last three months!

Working from home today, so chugging the water and getting up from my seat every hour to walk around the house or march on the spot. Then gym after work.

Hope you are having a good Father's Day, if you are celebrating.

BigChocFrenzy · 21/06/2020 11:49

Congratulations on your SV, Annabel

I don't know if this applies to you, but:

Occasionally, if someone has a long history of dieting, it can take a while before they start losing properly, even doing everything correctly

I strongly suspect that sometimes it's because their body needs the interim time to increase metabolic rate back to "normal," which fasting can help do.
(of course sometimes it's just they need the time to retrain old habits and get fully into the WOL)

OP posts:
Upsidedownrightnow · 21/06/2020 15:53

thats great news @annabell22 its always lovely to see the scales drop.

Well i've been having a terrible week @BigChocFrenzy i agree you were right about feeling too restricted. I have eaten upto tdee yesterday and will again today then go for my 3 mini fd next week.

However I am studying at the moment and we did an online test today and I came last, i was way behind everyone and hardly got any answers right. I think I have been so obsessed with my weight and exercise that i'm just not relaxed enough to retain any information.

I also stopped smoking a few months ago and i feel like i'm now restricted with smoking, eating and alcohol, the 3 things i usually use as coping mechanisms. I also use exercise as a coping mechanism which does still make me feel good but my body also needs a break and aches if i do more than i am used to.

I actually burst into tears after my online lesson today as i was feeling terrible.

I need to study every day next week so i have made a rota fitting in my exercise and study but I feel like obsessing over my weight isn't allowing me to concentrate. Sad

Sorry for the moan, but if any of you have any concentration tips atall please share. I think being in lockdown so long has started to get to me and its just hard.

NathanNathan · 21/06/2020 18:56

No tips but feeling similar about lockdown for sure! I had to have a couple of days off work this week. Just felt overwhelmed!

BigChocFrenzy · 21/06/2020 20:52

It's very positive that you'be stopped smoking, Upside and are treating alcohol sensibly

I suggest you try keeping to the 3 miniFD & healthy NFD system for better eating habits,
but don't get worried if loss is slow or even sts

Your body has gone through these other changes in your WOL as well and you are under stress from lockdown and studying

You need to take pressure off yourself wrt weight
Maybe just weigh every 4 weeks or so

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 21/06/2020 20:55

So eat up to TDEE on NFDs to reduce stress and maybe increase metabolic rate if you've been dieting a long time
So give yourself TLC, healthy habits and plenty of sleep

Even sts during lockdown would be an achievement. when you have so much stress elsewhere

OP posts:
DietChic · 22/06/2020 11:05

Morning all, fasting today - I am a little heavier than I should be so being quite strict this week. It’s all about water!

BigChocFrenzy · 22/06/2020 11:13

Good luck, Chic
Drink more water - it can help fat-burning

OP posts: