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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread number 91: Keep calm and carry on to goal with our friendly support group

963 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 12/06/2020 22:41

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" to maintain on the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally"
means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had past diagnosed Eating Disorders or serious MH problems you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, clothes size

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below if you need a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp
Rough Calories for NFD: Mosely TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Goal Weight For BodyFrame
Calc
Body Fat: BFat Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body types ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate]]

Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Units Cals

FD Recipes:
Mosely LowCarb , low carb Diet Doc
BBC Good Food 52 , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Foodie Under 200 Cals
Vegetarian ,

FD Ready Meals, Fast Food

Any Day:
Meal Planner

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.
  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid sugar or fruit juice. e.g. Stir-fries, soups & stews. Ready meals are OK.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

OP posts:
Thread gallery
9
MacavityTheDentistsCat · 21/07/2020 19:28

800!!!

robertsmithscorpsebride · 21/07/2020 19:47

Hello all, this thread has moved quickly since end of last week, need to go back and catch up!

Had a fab weekend with my dad, was lovely to see him after all these months and we made the most of it, too much food and wine consumed! Eek

Anyway, just coming on quickly to say fd here finished on 540, I'm going to attempt a B2B as there is no other day this week to fast, OMG, wish me luck! So I can have 650 cals each day, does that mean I can carry over the 110 from today and have 760cals tomorrow?

Hope everyone is having a good day 😁

BigChocFrenzy · 21/07/2020 20:50

< wafts smelling salts over Macavity >

Well done on your FD, Robert and good luck tomorrow
Have you managed a b2b before ?

From Michelle Harvie's research, you can have 650 cals per FD on b2b
I suggest that people can choose to save some cals on FD1 for FD2, because you start FD2 already fasted
This gives the flexibility that people can do FD1 and afterwards decide to make it into a b2b

So, yes, you can carry over the 110 cals to tomorrow, to make 760 cals
If you find it too tough, you could turn it into a miniFD and have an easy week

That's great you and your dad had such a fab time together

OP posts:
moonlight1705 · 21/07/2020 20:57

Finished my first FD back at 626 and have drunk pints of water!

BigChocFrenzy · 21/07/2020 21:28

Well done, Moonlight
Right back on track Smile

OP posts:
emcla · 21/07/2020 22:52

Wow. Things are flying along on this thread. Anyone know if there are any pluses to doing 16 /8 as opposed 5/2? Just think it might suit me better as I can easily skip breakfast and usually eat dinner early.

BigChocFrenzy · 21/07/2020 23:30

emcla Weight loss requires a calories defficit, on average 3,000 per week for 1lb loss

5:2 achieves this via the 2 FDs
but 16:8 would need a daily calorie deficit of around 430 calories

So e.g. skip breakfast - and do not eat back those calories during your 8-hour eating window
That's where people who don't lose on 16:8 go wrong

Instead of 2 meals per day, you could have 3 smaller meals at 11am, 3pm & 7pm

  • so long as you have the calorie deficit

It depends whether you would find it easier to have this calorie deficit every day,
or via 2 FDs and eat "normally" - around TDEE - the other 5 days

Are you finding the FDs tough ?
An alternative for a similar rate of loss as 5:2 would be 3 miniFDs (800-1000 cals) with same rules of no booze or junk
e.g. on Mon+Wed+Fri

Whatever fasting system you use, remember No Snacking between meals

OP posts:
robertsmithscorpsebride · 22/07/2020 08:34

No bigchoc I'm a B2B virgin Shock

Good to know I can carry the cals over....

Who else is fasting today?

MadauntofA · 22/07/2020 08:35

Wow, I bet your core is rock solid Bigchoc!
FD here again for me

MadauntofA · 22/07/2020 08:40

I've started Pilates to help my core, along with c25k, and will build in a weights session

BigChocFrenzy · 22/07/2020 10:23

Good luck today, Robert, MadAunt

My toughest day of the week, with the merciless behemoth Norman this evening:
Spin and advanced lifting classes, which for timetabling reasons are indeed in that awkward order

Of all the trainers I've had over the last 20+ years, he has made the most improvement to my strength & endurance

  • via a mixture of deep scientific / technical knowledge and sheer ruthlessness Grin

MadAunt Pressups are ace;
the most useful exercise to strengthen your entire core, as well as shoulders and arms

If anyone has time / enthusiasm to only do 1 upper body or abs execise,
then that's the one I recommend, to make the most difference

OP posts:
MazDazzle · 22/07/2020 11:20

This morning, as part of my PT session, I completed the IKFF level 1 fitness test with a 12 kilo kettlebell. Oh my! I’m done in. Completely.

I’ve swapped my black gym gear for one of my brightly coloured sets, which is always a sign that I’m feeling lean.Grin

I’m on day 2 of b2b as well Robert. I’m going to try to up my water levels today (I say that every week!) because yesterday I was ravenous and looking back I didn’t drink enough.

Going to go for a brisk walk to get my steps up. DH is now home now after over two months working away. Lots of tears yesterday when we were all reunited. Now I am free! I haven’t been able to go for a walk by myself in that time. The most I’ve managed is a stop/start shuffle with the kids in tow like a mother duck.

BigChocFrenzy · 22/07/2020 12:03

That's great exercise with the kettles, Maz
and good to hear you're in your kick-ass training outfit

Good luck on your FD
and Drink water !

Choose a pretty glass, dunk in ice and a slice, pour on your choice of water, still or fizz

btw, I've found some excellent mildly flavoured water with NO sweetener or sugar added:

  • Volvic Still with cucumber, lemon & mint
  • Rhodius Fizzy with lie & mint

Or of course, don't be lazy like me Blush and make your own !

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 22/07/2020 12:04
  • Rhodius Fizzy with LIME & mint
OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 22/07/2020 12:05

They are 1-2 cals / 100 ml, so 10-20 cals for 1 litre, well worth it to me

OP posts:
moonlight1705 · 22/07/2020 12:06

I seem to have 15 minutes each morning now to do a quick exercise thing before showering and getting dressed.

What do you think would be the best to go for in this time? My taekwondo class has had to stop and we've been so busy until now. They do online classes but they are an hour long and I just don't have that time.

Press ups and weights?

Lime and mint sounds lovely, may try making that one day.

BigChocFrenzy · 22/07/2020 13:46

You could do that, moonlight
or try a short video
Vary it and see what you enjoy, because sustainability is important

For beginners, Joe Wicks is good
then then are also concentrated Fitness Blasts I like from BowFlex:

6 mins HIIT, Body & Abs

8 mins Abs

5 mins Body (with light weights)

4 mins Legs

5 mins Calves

OP posts:
emcla · 22/07/2020 15:31

Thanks bigchoc. I am finding the fast days tough at the moment. I was getting lots of headaches and constip. Sorry if tmi. I tried the marmite and am good with the water. My bmi is 22.

BigChocFrenzy · 22/07/2020 16:04

emcla If you are doing 500 FDs, then I recommend you move to 800 FDs instead and have 3 small meals

Would you find the alternative of 16:8 with a daily 400+ calorie deficit easier ?

btw, at BMI 22 are you sure you have excess fat to go ?
You can have FD headaches when your body is struggling to find excess fat for fuel

OP posts:
Beautiful3 · 22/07/2020 18:22

Thanks BigChoc. Kitchen closed at 526. That's 3 back to back fast days completed. I dont know why but I find them easier to do, back to back. The week's my own now! Well done Wednesday fasters.

MadauntofA · 22/07/2020 18:55

Well done Beaut. Kitchen closed here at 520, just finishing off my cup of tea.

robertsmithscorpsebride · 22/07/2020 19:11

Aww how lovely to have dh back 😍

Well done beaut cant believe that you do 3 consecutive days! Well done mad and all the other fasters.

B2b finished on 750 (540 yesterday) and I've found it pretty easy to do, not really felt hungry at all. Got drinks with a friend tomorrow, not seen her socially since lockdown so let's hope we dont go mad 😉

MazDazzle · 22/07/2020 19:18

Well done Beaut and Mad. Hope your FD is going well too Robert.

Those drinks sound so tempting BC, especially on a hot day. I’ll have to give the cucumber, mint and lemon one a try.

Walked for 3 miles in the sunshine today. Nothing quite like marching over the hills to get your heart pumping. Then home for a FD dinner of bacon and spring onion omelette with asparagus and mange tout.

I feel so stuffed that my stomach hurts! Keeping everything crossed that I’ll see a shift in the scales tomorrow.🤞🏻

BigChocFrenzy · 22/07/2020 20:20

Well done, Beaut, MadAunt, Robert, Maz

Good luck, Maz and anyone weighing in tomorrow

OP posts:
emcla · 22/07/2020 23:20

Thanks bigchoc. I just carry my weight on my lower half. Upper half is fine. Just want the clothes to be a bit more comfortable. I find that jeans are a bit tight. The headaches were very bad I can’t function with them. I have no problem skipping breakfast. Maybe 800 x 3 are a better long term plan. I can do 16 8 also