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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread number 91: Keep calm and carry on to goal with our friendly support group

963 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 12/06/2020 22:41

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" to maintain on the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally"
means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had past diagnosed Eating Disorders or serious MH problems you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, clothes size

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below if you need a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp
Rough Calories for NFD: Mosely TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Goal Weight For BodyFrame
Calc
Body Fat: BFat Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body types ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate]]

Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Units Cals

FD Recipes:
Mosely LowCarb , low carb Diet Doc
BBC Good Food 52 , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Foodie Under 200 Cals
Vegetarian ,

FD Ready Meals, Fast Food

Any Day:
Meal Planner

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.
  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid sugar or fruit juice. e.g. Stir-fries, soups & stews. Ready meals are OK.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

OP posts:
Thread gallery
9
BigChocFrenzy · 18/07/2020 10:37

Lovely sun here as usual, MadAunt Smile
I should sort out a few of my big cupboards too, but maybe in winter .... Blush

I'm just about to go for my daily Rhine walk
Spin class this afternoon and I'll lift some weights before

OP posts:
Beautiful3 · 18/07/2020 18:54

Hi everyone. Not been on here for a few days. Hope you're all having a good weekend, and well done to those fasting.

BigChocFrenzy · 19/07/2020 08:16

Hi, Beaut
I'm having a miniFD today. Anyone else ?

B: black coffee
then morning spin and a walk
L: Butternut squash soup with boiled egg yolks & flaked almonds (a wierd concoction I like)
T: Chicken salad & a slice of rye bread

OP posts:
MadauntofA · 19/07/2020 11:56

I like your combination of butternut squash soup and boiled egg yolks Bigchoc, but would probably add tiny pieces of Spanish jamon, or toasted pine nuts.
NFD here, FD tomorrow

MadauntofA · 19/07/2020 15:03

Or even better - toasted pumpkin and sunflower seeds are a great sprinkle

BigChocFrenzy · 19/07/2020 15:47

It's individual preference, whatever suits the individual:

For me, egg yolks are very filling for the calories they use, about 55 each
and a level tbsp of flaked almonds (40 cals) also goes a long way
whereas seeds are more like a flavouring, and not filling - for me - except in considerable amounts

I also eat a lot of egg yolks, for their high zeaxanthin and lutein, to try & slow down the deterioration in my sight.

OP posts:
missfliss · 19/07/2020 18:26

Kitchen closing on 511 here !

Beautiful3 · 19/07/2020 19:44

@BigChocFrenzy ooh your meal plan sounds delicious! Well done on your mini fast/fast BigChoc and missfliss. I'm fasting tomorrow. Anyone else?

BigChocFrenzy · 19/07/2020 20:03

Well done, MissFliss right on the nose

Good luck tomorrow, Beaut
Have you planned your menu in advance ?

OP posts:
MadauntofA · 19/07/2020 22:16

Well done missfliss, I'm fasting tomorrow too Beaut.

BigChocFrenzy · 20/07/2020 08:18

Good luck on your FD today, MadAunt, Beaut and the rest of the Monday fasting troop

OP posts:
Beautiful3 · 20/07/2020 08:42

BigChoc, lunch will be a boiled egg and salad. I usually make chicken and vegetable soup on Mondays for dinner, which is good when fasting. I like the time spent cooking as it distracts me from eating! Looks like it's you and me MadAuntofA! We can do this, we will power through today!

MadauntofA · 20/07/2020 09:15

Feeling good this morning Beaut having my black coffee. Planning miso soup for lunch, then tuna and egg salad tonight. Plenty of water and herbal teas.
I like the sound of chicken and veg soup - might plan that for my 2nd FD.

inthethickofit19 · 20/07/2020 13:04

Morning all,

I have some sort of stomach bug so just letting it pass just now. Was up most of the night 🙄

BCF I'm not doing well with the core exercises you recommended, I think I should print them off; that may help.

I really enjoy weight lifting but need to start at basics. Is there anything you can recommend for that please?

inthethickofit19 · 20/07/2020 13:09

Oh is anytime else in a similar boat?

TDEE is 1526, current weight 9.5 stone. Goal weight 8.5 stone. Height 5 ft 2

A hand hold for the slow weight loss journey would be good

missfliss · 20/07/2020 14:17

I've lost 10 pounds in a month! I'm halfway :-)

Fasting again tomorrow.

Expecting a slow down in weight loss now as I get closer to target

MadauntofA · 20/07/2020 15:52

Fantastic loss Miss. I'm with you Inthethick - lost 3kg initially then have slowed down. I think I eat a bit over my tdee, but I'm still losing slowly, so happy with that. Might have to log everything for a week if I stall, but can't be bothered at the moment.

BigChocFrenzy · 20/07/2020 16:06

Congratulations on your SV; MissFliss
Halfway is a really encouraging milestone

Sorry to hear you have a stomach lurgie, inthethick
We've learned from experience on these threads with such bugs that fasters need to wait at least 5 days after symptoms have gone
This is because the gut is still recovering and a premature return to fasting, especially with just a single FD supper, can cause symptoms to return

"I'm not doing well with the core exercises you recommended"

Are they difficult to understand, or to get round to doing them, or too hard to do ?
Yes, printing off might help
You start with literally 2 minutes per day, then increase gradually as you feel ready

If you would like to start on some gentle weight-lifting too, I'll dig out some basic videos

OP posts:
Booq · 20/07/2020 16:12

Oh I'm struggling.

I am a binge eater. As soon as I find something hard I just descend into eating. I really want to crack this habit.

I'm doing every other day fasting of 800 and 1500 (my TDEE at goal weight) and 16:8.

Each week I seem to screw up at least one day. Weight is going up and down the same two or three pounds.

Any help very gratefully received.

BigChocFrenzy · 20/07/2020 17:00

Hi Booq Try these suggestions:

  1. Most important tip: No snacking or grazing between meals, not even "healthy" snacks like fruit or nuts

I suggest you try 2-3 meals per day on FDs, 3-4 meals on NFDs .... but nothing between

If you want a treat on an NFD - and "treat" might be e.g. crisps, cake, bisucit, a glass of wine or a latte - then have it as part of the meal, e.g. as a side or pud

  1. Eating to goal TDEE can be unsustainable if you've a lot to lose because that leads to hunger on NFDs, which often leads to bingeing. Sustainability over the weeks is much more effective than being too tough & crashing out on binges

Especially with every other day fasting, you need to eat to your full current TDEE
Use Mosely's calculator, more reliable than some others :
Calc TDEE

If you are a regular exerciser, then Mosely recommends using one activity level lower than you think

  1. Plan the menu for each day in advance, both the FD and the NFD
    That's to avoid you rooting aimlessly in the fridge for ideas and food
    Then stick to the plan, no ad hoc eating

  2. If you feel the urge to go off-plan and binge, then drink some water and clean your teeth
    Psychologically, the clean fresh mouth feel discourages nibbling

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 20/07/2020 17:06

inthethick I don't have beginner lifting routines,
but I have simple videos showing lifts to work each of the main muscle groups, which I can post here if you wish ?

OP posts:
Booq · 20/07/2020 17:24

Thank you @BigChocFrenzy.

That's a good few things I can change, I wasn't sure where to start. Makes sense about hunger in the NFDs and I have always been doing 2 meals.

Very kind.

Booq · 20/07/2020 17:25

I have around 3.5 stone to loose.

BigChocFrenzy · 20/07/2020 20:13

You're welcome, Booq Smile
Ask anytime
Good luck in achieving your goals 👍

OP posts:
inthethickofit19 · 20/07/2020 20:14

@BigChocFrenzy

Congratulations on your SV; MissFliss Halfway is a really encouraging milestone

Sorry to hear you have a stomach lurgie, inthethick
We've learned from experience on these threads with such bugs that fasters need to wait at least 5 days after symptoms have gone
This is because the gut is still recovering and a premature return to fasting, especially with just a single FD supper, can cause symptoms to return

"I'm not doing well with the core exercises you recommended"

Are they difficult to understand, or to get round to doing them, or too hard to do ?
Yes, printing off might help
You start with literally 2 minutes per day, then increase gradually as you feel ready

If you would like to start on some gentle weight-lifting too, I'll dig out some basic videos

Thanks BCF. No not difficult to understand, just a faff Checking my phone as the kids want to grab it etc so print out will be easier. I also don't enjoy them as much but I know I have to do them Blush