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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread number 91: Keep calm and carry on to goal with our friendly support group

963 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 12/06/2020 22:41

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" to maintain on the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally"
means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had past diagnosed Eating Disorders or serious MH problems you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, clothes size

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below if you need a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp
Rough Calories for NFD: Mosely TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Goal Weight For BodyFrame
Calc
Body Fat: BFat Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body types ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate]]

Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Units Cals

FD Recipes:
Mosely LowCarb , low carb Diet Doc
BBC Good Food 52 , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Foodie Under 200 Cals
Vegetarian ,

FD Ready Meals, Fast Food

Any Day:
Meal Planner

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.
  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid sugar or fruit juice. e.g. Stir-fries, soups & stews. Ready meals are OK.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

OP posts:
Thread gallery
9
MadauntofA · 13/07/2020 20:22

Kitchen closed here at 480. Still feel hungry but will manage till bedtime! I don't think I could have resisted brownies either!!

BigChocFrenzy · 13/07/2020 20:35

Minnie I've been on these threads 2013 and I haven't seen reports of it significantly affecting periods
(other than for some with PCOS who were helped)

I'm presuming you haven't gone down to a v low BMI ?

  • I've heard periods can get much lighter or stop for some women around even BMI 19, which is officially in the healthy range, especially if they are doing a lot of exercise
OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 13/07/2020 20:41

Well done on your FD, MadAunt

Not long to go, Chic and remember:
Don't weigh during totm

Have a lovely time with your dad this weekend, Robert 👍

Aim for that dress, Maz ! - a good next goal

OP posts:
MazDazzle · 13/07/2020 20:43

Describe the brownies Diet. I want to hear all about them! Grin Not very helpful on a FD though, granted.

My ham and egg salad was a taste sensation. I haven’t had a boiled egg in ages and everything tastes so delicious on a FD, doesn’t it? I’m very proud that I managed to feed my kids and clean away their plates, scraping their leftovers straight into the food bin without picking.

Tidied and cleaned the bathroom today and sorted out the cupboards. Getting their slowly. Treated myself to a ginger tea, bubble bath and candle.

I’ve been following your advice re.
what to eat, what to avoid etc, but I’ve yet to tackle HIIT. Tomorrow is the day! I used to love going to HIIT classes, but always find it a thought doing it at home.

Ciderandskatesdontmix · 13/07/2020 20:49

Kitchen closed at 684... not great, but in my defence, tesco subbed the king prawns that I was supposed to have for tea so I had to improvise. Next FD planned for thursday.

DietChic · 13/07/2020 21:22

Well. The brownies were good - not too sweet, loads of walnuts, moist... then after I had wolfed one down (filling), she said they were made with almond flour and xylitol! So I don’t know if that’s worse or better than normal pure ol’ sugar etc but she was trying to be low carb for me because she knows I try to stay off wheat etc.

I am not sure xylitol agrees with me to be frank! But they were unmistakably tasty at the time for being unsweet!

inthethickofit19 · 13/07/2020 21:54

FD plans fell through today.. as dh had an emergency and didn't pick up some ingredients I needed.

So tomorrow it is. I really want to knuckle down but at the same time I'm lacking the motivation. Too often I think 'a slow loss is fine' but then I get frustrated and disheartened when it actually happens. I don't know if there's just too much going on for me right now. Maybe I need to take the pressure off a bit

SmiledWithTheRisingSun · 13/07/2020 23:04

Hello. Haven't fasted in a long while. Im going have to join you ladies again I'm huge Confused
Will plan a couple of FDs this week!

SmiledWithTheRisingSun · 13/07/2020 23:06

Oh and am 13st 12 and 5ft 8. Need to get back to 11st 🙈

annabell22 · 14/07/2020 07:52

Welcome back @SmiledWithTheRisingSun

FD2 of the week for me, and I did a mini FD yesterday (850). I am constantly reminding myself it's the process that matters, not the outcome, because I have not lost anything on the last four FDs despite being careful, tracking, 2l of water and doing lots of exercise. After a FD my weight either goes up or stays the same and my weekly average was just 100g lower than last week. This cannot last for ever and I will ride it out!

MadauntofA · 14/07/2020 08:10

Morning all, good luck today's fasters

robertsmithscorpsebride · 14/07/2020 09:31

Thanks bigchoc

welcome back risingsun and good luck

eek good luck with the HIIT maz Grin let us know how you get on

inthethick good luck for today, just take it one FD at a time

I'm fasting with you today annabell hope you have good day

MazDazzle · 14/07/2020 10:08

Thanks robert. I was all psyched for it last night. This morning, not so much!

That’s a great attitude to have annabell. Keep going. As long as you have a weekly deficit, you’ll see a shift eventually!

I’m down 0.8lb. Grin Getting there, slowly.

robertsmithscorpsebride · 14/07/2020 11:46

Well done on your SV maz you've inspired me to go and do a 5 min HIIT thing that I have recorded on SKY called 'Fit in 5' does anyone do it / knows if its any good? I ended up doing 2 of them but my arthritic knee was clicking like mad by the end of it - ouch!

annabell22 · 14/07/2020 11:47

I'm hungry! But it's not dinner time and I'm looking forward to my moroccan stew and couscous - vegan, homemade and ready to throw in the microwave.

Hope the rest of today's fasters are riding the hunger wave too!

robertsmithscorpsebride · 14/07/2020 12:15

do you just have 1 meal annabell stay strong!

annabell22 · 14/07/2020 12:42

Yes, just dinner - I find it easier than waking the hunger monster by eating at lunchtime. I'm GMT+4 so it's closer to dinner time than you might think! Just heading out for a walk now, then Skype with my folks so the afternoon will be over pretty soon.

missfliss · 14/07/2020 13:37

Hello fellow Tuesday fasters. I also only have one meal at dinner time on fast days - although I do have a small snack one hour before.

Today I will go through till 4 pm and then have some prawns on spinach leaves @ 100 kcal.

Dinner is then sea bass, mangetout, new potatoes with strawbs and Greek yoghurt.

I find it easier too to fast this way

BigChocFrenzy · 14/07/2020 14:54

That was a good FD, cider
and you substituted adroitly

Congratulations on your SV, Maz
Steady progress

Inthethick Slow loss mounts up over the weeks & months
Quick loss for many people is only likely with Fast800 / BSD and that sounds much too tough a WOE for you atm

Have you tried / considered the 3 miniFD system instead of 2 FDs ?

Good luck, smiled, annabell, Robert, MissFliss and any other fasters today

Chic Many of the substitutes with sugar alcohol can have unfortunate effects on the tum Grin
Maltilol is the worst imo - I tried it a few times, but after a terribly uncomfortable & farty weight class (! Blush) some years ago, never again

Stevia (which Mosely suggests) isn't really suitable for baking, but sucralose (e.g. Splenda) works if you want a substitute
Personally, I prefer inulin (chicory) - v high fibre and although processed into powder seems more natural

OP posts:
Ciderandskatesdontmix · 14/07/2020 17:29

So I've been reading through the thread and it seems that snacks are a big no-no. I've realised over the past week or so that I am such a grazer! Is it possible to have 4 small meals on nfd? What makes it a meal and not a snack Confused?

MazDazzle · 14/07/2020 17:45

Well done robert. I don’t know Why I’ve been putting it off. There’s no reason why I can’t do it more often. I downloaded an app with a timer that beeps at intervals of your choosing, which was handy. I thought it best not to eat until afterwards and as I kept putting it off I missed breakfast and lunch. Win, win!

Diet, those brownies sound so good! Today my daughter made mini french toasts with Nutella and sugar cinnamon sugar. I had one small portion with strawberries for dessert. Not bad going for a NFD in the face of such temptation.

BigChocFrenzy · 14/07/2020 19:02

Cider 4 meals is fine on NFDs

A meal contains a good amount of protein and is reasonably nourishing, although can include a junky treat

  • if you want a "treat" which btw also includes wine - then have it only as part of an NFD meal, not on its own

A "snack" is less than about 3 hours before or after a meal

Why we shouldn't snack

Mosely and most other fasting experts recommend no snacking between meals

Even "healthy" snacks - like fruit or dipping veg - keep insulin raised and hence reduce the time in which your body can burn fat.
And the most common / tempting snacks are not even healthy

Also, human studies show that most people consume more calories in a 24-hour period if they snack,
because the reduction in meal size (if any) is usually less than the calories contained in all the snacks.

You can lose despite snacking, but it will probably be slower than without.
So, any treats - lattes, alcohol, crisps, biscuits, cake etc - and even fruit, nuts, yoghurt etc should only be as part of a meal.

Snacks are ok for those who need to gain weight, e.g. underweight DC - but this applies to only a few in the West

Each 24 hour day with snacks becomes insulin-dominant (graph 2) instead of fasting-dominant (graph 1), see graphs from Dr Jason Fung:

5:2 Thread number 91: Keep calm and carry on to goal with our friendly support group
5:2 Thread number 91: Keep calm and carry on to goal with our friendly support group
OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 14/07/2020 19:07

Meals don't have to be complicated, but when you are getting used to no snacks,
it helps to roughly plan your menu for the day in advance, so you aren't hunting for food / ideas when hungry
Plan 1-2 substantial meals and the others can be smaller

Breakfast can be simple e.g. eggs or porridge or toast & pnut butter
Your lunch and afternoon meal can be as simple as a sandwich / filled pita or soup
Supper is best to have by about 7:30, to avoid delaying the daily overnight fast
You can make lunch your biggest meal instead, if you prefer

OP posts:
missfliss · 14/07/2020 19:10

Today's kitchen closed in 524...

Am I slim yet? 😂

Beautiful3 · 14/07/2020 19:18

This morning I went for a jog with my daughter, and spent and hour and half on the bike. I was so busy, that today turned into an accidental fast day! Kitchen closed at 530. Thats turned out well for me! Well done Tuesday fasters!

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