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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread number 91: Keep calm and carry on to goal with our friendly support group

963 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 12/06/2020 22:41

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" to maintain on the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally"
means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had past diagnosed Eating Disorders or serious MH problems you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, clothes size

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below if you need a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp
Rough Calories for NFD: Mosely TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Goal Weight For BodyFrame
Calc
Body Fat: BFat Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body types ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate]]

Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Units Cals

FD Recipes:
Mosely LowCarb , low carb Diet Doc
BBC Good Food 52 , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Foodie Under 200 Cals
Vegetarian ,

FD Ready Meals, Fast Food

Any Day:
Meal Planner

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.
  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid sugar or fruit juice. e.g. Stir-fries, soups & stews. Ready meals are OK.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

OP posts:
Thread gallery
9
BigChocFrenzy · 06/07/2020 16:48

MNHQ keeps a beady eye on the fasting threads
and I've received warning PMs about v long fasts from doctors on here

If we start encouraging 40-hour fasts we will probably be zapped

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 06/07/2020 16:48

Good luck, library

OP posts:
MadauntofA · 06/07/2020 18:59

Kitchen closed here at 510. I've been hungry all day - experimented with a smaller lunch at 80cal then other than 50 for milk in tea, rest has gone on dinner. Feeling v full now so i will see - May go back to my trusty boiled egg and spinach lunch for the next FD.
Does anyone do anything different for their evening meal the night before FDs? Do you think it makes a difference with hunger if it is carb heavy/ light or other tweaks?
How's everyone else doing today?

robertsmithscorpsebride · 06/07/2020 19:43

Well done madaunt hope you stay full all evening 😁

Nfd done here, feel like I've eaten loads but tracked everything and I still have 200cals left... fd tomorrow

How have all the Monday fasters got on?

BigChocFrenzy · 06/07/2020 20:36

Well done, MadAunt

NFD supper before an FD:
. the main thing is to avoid boozing - FD with a sore head is NOT fun ! 😂
Preferably have any alcohol at lunchtime
. Avoid a junky supper
. Include a good amount of protein & veg, moderate amount of starchy carbs

  • Obviously no snacking / nibbling after supper

Sounds a good filling NFD, Robert

How are you doing, Chic, Waspie ?

OP posts:
emcla · 06/07/2020 20:59

Bigchoc I have a question. If I remember you mentioned up thread that only 2 meals can cause cvd. How does this work ? Is it why 3 meals a day are encouraged?

Beautiful3 · 06/07/2020 21:17

@YeetYeet thanks for explaining that, I find these fasts quite interesting. Wow a stone is impressive, well done! My plan is to do these fasts 3 times a week until I'm at my goal weight, then like you, I'll stick to twice a week.

Beautiful3 · 06/07/2020 21:21

Kitchen closed at 579. Today was an easy day, fortunately. Well done Monday fasters!

BigChocFrenzy · 06/07/2020 21:23

emcla No, 2 meals are OK
Research has found that OMAD (ONE meal per day) on the equivalent of NFD increases the risk of CVD

It is presumably the sheer amount of calories, a full day's intake, in one meal, almost always supper

There is similar research showing that eating supper after 8 pm increases the risk of CVD, strokes, high BP

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 06/07/2020 21:24

Well done on your FD, Beaut

OP posts:
emcla · 06/07/2020 21:45

Thanks bigchoc. That’s very interesting. I get it now.

BigChocFrenzy · 06/07/2020 21:52

emcla Here is a paper from cell metabolism covering previous studies and with a human study of their own

Note: this is for NFDs
It doesn't matter when you eat on FDs, as the amount is so small

Early Time-Restricted Feeding Improves Insulin Sensitivity, Blood Pressure, and Oxidative Stress Even without Weight Loss in Men with Prediabetes

Just changing the timing of meals, by eating earlier in the day and extending the overnight fast,
significantly benefited metabolism in people who maintained calorie intake and hence didn’t lose a single pound
i.e. benefit was not due to weight loss, but to eating timing.

The benefit of an earlier eating window is thought to be due to Circadian rhythms

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1550413118302535

OP posts:
MadauntofA · 06/07/2020 21:56

Thanks Bigchoc, I'll bear that in mind.
Well done Monday fasters!

Beautiful3 · 06/07/2020 22:24

That's very interesting reading, thanks @BigChocFrenzy. I suppose the earlier a person eats dinner, the longer the fasting window (overnight til next day lunchtime).

BigChocFrenzy · 06/07/2020 22:31

beaut with the early window, the overnight fast is until breakfast
It's basically a version of 16:8 where you skip supper instead of skipping breakfast

So the length of the fast isn't changed, just the timing

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 06/07/2020 22:32

e.g. eat 7am - 3 pm or 8am - 4 pm

OP posts:
inthethickofit19 · 06/07/2020 22:49

@MadauntofA

Kitchen closed here at 510. I've been hungry all day - experimented with a smaller lunch at 80cal then other than 50 for milk in tea, rest has gone on dinner. Feeling v full now so i will see - May go back to my trusty boiled egg and spinach lunch for the next FD. Does anyone do anything different for their evening meal the night before FDs? Do you think it makes a difference with hunger if it is carb heavy/ light or other tweaks? How's everyone else doing today?
Definitely feel hungrier on a FD if I've had carb heavy meal the night before. And I always base my meal on protein on FD
Beautiful3 · 07/07/2020 05:40

@BigChocFrenzy when it's my fd I prefer to eat between 12-6 (lunch and dinner). Does it matter that I don't have anything for breakfast? I'm not that hungry in the mornings.

Beautiful3 · 07/07/2020 05:43

@MadauntofA I use protein to feel full up on fds. A slice of roast beef/boiled egg with salad for lunch followed by a protein and vegetable dinner. I never feel hungry now.

MadauntofA · 07/07/2020 06:40

That's an interesting article - I'd heard a podcast a while back about time restricted eating in mice. I'm not sure how practical finishing eating at 3/4 is for most people, but I certainly feel much better stopping at 6.30-7 most evenings and having a few hrs free before bed. I get a hangover effect if I eat too late.
I'll definitely try the lower carb dinner before FDs and keep to protein+ veg on FDs.

MadauntofA · 07/07/2020 06:44


#21 Why When You Eat Matters with Professor Satchin Panda PART 1

#22 Why When We Eat Matters with Professor Satchin Panda PART 2

MadauntofA · 07/07/2020 06:48

Sorry - they are the wrong way round (two parter - part 2 I posted first)
Quite long, but I have found a few really interesting podcasts on this series about all aspects of health by Dr Rangan Chatterjee.

inthethickofit19 · 07/07/2020 07:29

Morning all,

Ended up postponing my fd till today so here I am again. Dh has a rare night off work last night so we made it date night.

Anyone else fasting today?