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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread number 91: Keep calm and carry on to goal with our friendly support group

963 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 12/06/2020 22:41

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" to maintain on the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally"
means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had past diagnosed Eating Disorders or serious MH problems you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, clothes size

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below if you need a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp
Rough Calories for NFD: Mosely TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Goal Weight For BodyFrame
Calc
Body Fat: BFat Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body types ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate]]

Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Units Cals

FD Recipes:
Mosely LowCarb , low carb Diet Doc
BBC Good Food 52 , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Foodie Under 200 Cals
Vegetarian ,

FD Ready Meals, Fast Food

Any Day:
Meal Planner

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.
  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid sugar or fruit juice. e.g. Stir-fries, soups & stews. Ready meals are OK.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

OP posts:
Thread gallery
9
inthethickofit19 · 04/07/2020 09:54

Wow 😮 @robertsmithscorpsebride that's over half a stone!!! Well done!

@MazDazzle you have coped incredibly well!

Since posting my weight log the other day, I've had a fast day on Thursday and today I've woken up to 9st 5.7lbs  that's a lb down which is a mini whoosh for me since I can only lose 2/3 of a lb a week theoretically! So it does seem to have been water weight @BigChocFrenzy. I was convinced I was going well over on nfds.

Anyways, just got to keep going.

Had a terrible night sleep as my legs were very restless following 5.5mins on the bike yesterday.

BigChocFrenzy · 04/07/2020 09:55

MadAunt So you eat that mini-meal as soon as you come in, just after 5:30 pm and then have dinner at say 7:30 pm
The short gap isn't ideal, but it's far better than lots of ad hoc bits, which can really add up when you're hungry

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 04/07/2020 10:00

Well done on your SV, intethick

Some people have had whooshes after a plateau
One theory is that they were losing fat, but the cells immediately filled up with water, as the body was trying to maintain weight (homeostasis) - hence sts -

but if you persist long enough, your body is ready to release that water again with a whoosh

And of course a small whoosh can be after your digestive system emptying out a bit !

OP posts:
MadauntofA · 04/07/2020 10:10

Thanks, I'll try that Bigchoc.

Fizzysours · 04/07/2020 10:17

@BigChocFrenzy is it common to have trouble sleeping on fast days? I am a sleep addict and usually start to feel exhausted an hour before my early bedtime! Yesterday I had my one meal about 3 hours before bed but went to bed feeling totally wired (happy wired,but still annoyingly I slept really badly)

inthethickofit19 · 04/07/2020 10:31

[quote Fizzysours]@BigChocFrenzy is it common to have trouble sleeping on fast days? I am a sleep addict and usually start to feel exhausted an hour before my early bedtime! Yesterday I had my one meal about 3 hours before bed but went to bed feeling totally wired (happy wired,but still annoyingly I slept really badly)[/quote]
Interestingly I sleep better on FD's

NathanNathan · 04/07/2020 10:37

Glad you cleared the spiders BigChoc and they didn't eat you Grin

BigChocFrenzy · 04/07/2020 10:45

Fizzy Fasting often makes people feel more alert

  • possibly for evolutionary reasons, to make you better equipped to hunt your food Grin

While you are adapting to fasting, this can affect sleep
but later on, many fasters find they sleep better than ever

However, problems sleeping can also be because of changed habits, in particular increased caffeine intake on FDs
So check if you have increased coffee / tea and move to herbal teas, Bovril on FDs

OP posts:
Beautiful3 · 04/07/2020 10:59

Wow well done @robertsmithscorpsebride that's amazing! Good luck with your cleaning @MazDazzle. Well done on the bike @inthethickofit19. When I first got my bike I could only manage a few minutes on it. I added on an extra minute each day. You'll find that in a month or two you'll be able to do it for a substantial amount of time.

Beautiful3 · 04/07/2020 11:21

@Fizzysours I had problems sleeping the first two weeks if fasting too. I dont drink tea or coffee, so it wasnt to do with drinking more caffeine. I bought some marmite and started to eat a tea spoon on my fast days, followed by a glass of water. I soon had no problems sleeping. This may not be anything to do with the marmite, it could just be my body adjusting. But I'm still doing it as I love my sleep!

BigChocFrenzy · 04/07/2020 11:44

Good tip, Beaut
The Marmite replenishes salt & minerals that may be lower on FDs - maybe your previous wakefulness was partly due to this lack ?

OP posts:
Fizzysours · 04/07/2020 11:58

Aw thank you guys xx

inthethickofit19 · 04/07/2020 12:32

@BigChocFrenzy

That's good you are progressing carefully with cycling, inthethick and you sound positive Before you do any specific abs exercise, I recommend checking with your doctor first If you get the all-clear, I can suggest some routines

Many women put on weight when they move in with a male OH,
because he will usually have a much higher TDEE and hence eat more
so the woman unconsciously increases her portions, or joins the snacking

Remember - male & female 5:2ers: no snacking, ever !

Thanks BCF, I've had the all clear from GP. They aren't too interested! I can pm you a pic of my stomach if that would help. It's very wobbly and looks like im pregnant when I let it hang loose Grin
Badabingbadabum · 04/07/2020 12:56

Can I loiter for a bit while I get going? I'm a couple of weeks into the 5:2 diet, its not causing me any problems and it is something I have done in the past, as well as one meal a day. I am 5'6" and I think must be near 11st now (will pop to my parents bathroom when dropping some things round later to use their scales!). I used to do at least a couple of miles of brisk walking a day as I don't drive and the bus stop was annoyingly far away from work, then also had walks for shopping, school pick ups and drop offs. I am on antidepressants and this level of activity plus being mindful of what I ate meant that I gained a little weight since starting the medication last year but then stopped gaining anymore.

Now 'working from home' with two small children I barely walk a couple of miles a week. I've gone up about a dress size and think I must have put on around a stone. Not helped by water retention and an ibs flare up with awful bloating. I would need so few calories in a day not to keep gaining weight I don't think that would be sustainable - or healthy. So I am hoping IF sorts this out.

Hello all! Smile

BigChocFrenzy · 04/07/2020 13:09

Welcome, Bada 🙂
IF can often help water retention quite quickly

One meal is fine on FDs, but I recommend against OMAD on NFDs:
. studies have shown it increases the risk of CVD, high BP, stroke
. it gets you used to v large meals, which causes problems when you try to eat "normally again"

For health, fitness and psychologically, it would be useful to build up exercise again
Walking outside is good for the "executive functions" of the brain, as well as fitness benefits

If you are short of time, then 4-5 minute HIIT routines online can rapidly boost fitness,
or just do sprint intervals or rope skipping for a few minutes on your own.

Also, Mosely & others have shown that v short HIIT bursts can help issues of insulin metabolism that hinder weight loss and increase risk of T2

OP posts:
Badabingbadabum · 04/07/2020 13:36

Thanks Bigchoc. Nfd will definitely be a couple of meals and the odd biscuit. I lost a lot of weight a couple of years ago but it was stress and going without so my children wouldn't have to. I ate meals at the weekend and most days in the week just a couple of snacks. I looked good in clothes but I was pale, terrible skin, I looked old. I enjoy being able to plan and eat nice meals now. And fortunately I can now buy the larger clothes I need but I dont want to keep doing this! Grin

I have started using the fiton app and really like some of the Pilates based sessions. I will five hiit a go, thank you.

BigChocFrenzy · 04/07/2020 19:42

Best tips for NFDs:

.No snacking between meals
. NHS alcohol limits, daily & weekly

OP posts:
MazDazzle · 04/07/2020 23:32

Well done on your SV inthethickofit!

My step count has plummeted since lockdown too Bada. It’s not easy working from home with kids.

My FD was easier today because I kept myself busy. I am determined to get on top of this house! I think the most I’ve ever managed is two rooms at any one time. Blush

FD dinner consisted of sushi and a Thai style cup-a-soup.

There’s a tub of creamy coleslaw winking at me every time I opened the fridge, but I keep reminding myself ‘I can have it tomorrow!’.

Badabingbadabum · 05/07/2020 09:29

FD for me today. Normally I wouldn't eat until dinner but thanks to the tail end of a migraine today I had a couple of pudding spoonfuls of plain yoghurt and four little strawberries for a bit of sugar and so I could take some more ibuprofen (on a on-fast day this would be a biscuit!). So plenty of water and a couple of cups of coffee with oat milk today. Veg and noodles for dinner with lots of hot and sharp flavours.

Mazdazzle, tidying is a great distraction isn't it! I thought being at home all the time would mean a lovely, tidy, clean house... why did I think that!?

missfliss · 05/07/2020 10:13

Hello everyone - lovely couple of days of indulgence ( cocktails, wine takeaway and hungover Mac Donald's!) celebrating 10 years of marriage - but happy to be back on a FD today. Will also fast on tues and Thursday this week.
Anyone else?

robertsmithscorpsebride · 05/07/2020 10:50

That's fantastic inthethick 😁

Good luck sorting the house maz🧹🧼

Welcome baba and good luck, I used to walk loads to, back and forth to the train station every day, it's tough isnt it!

inthethickofit19 · 05/07/2020 12:40

@MazDazzle

Well done on your SV inthethickofit!

My step count has plummeted since lockdown too Bada. It’s not easy working from home with kids.

My FD was easier today because I kept myself busy. I am determined to get on top of this house! I think the most I’ve ever managed is two rooms at any one time. Blush

FD dinner consisted of sushi and a Thai style cup-a-soup.

There’s a tub of creamy coleslaw winking at me every time I opened the fridge, but I keep reminding myself ‘I can have it tomorrow!’.

You can do it maz! Just keep going. 15 minute stints often help me when I'm struggling
annabell22 · 05/07/2020 12:42

Congrats on your anniversary @missfliss

Well done to the roberts household!

FD for me, had a great week last week. Have now finished work (not that I was leaving the house anyway) so I went for a run this morning then later a wander round the mall for an hour. I am keen to overhaul my work wardrobe in anticipation of actually leaving the house to do my job in late August.

Just had a little afternoon snooze, another FD luxury when not at work!

BigChocFrenzy · 05/07/2020 12:52

Congrats on your 10th anniversary missfliss
You obviously had a lovely celebration

Well done on your FD, Maz
and I'm impressed by your tidying

Good luck on your FD, Bada, Missfliss, Annabell and any other Sunday fasters

Sounds a good menu, Bada

Annabell You've time on an FD for a siesta
and also to plan your new work wardrobe Smile

OP posts:
inthethickofit19 · 05/07/2020 13:19

@BigChocFrenzy would you (or anyone else) mind if I posted photos of my jelly belly in order to get some advice please? I tried to pm you but you can't attach photos like that.