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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread number 91: Keep calm and carry on to goal with our friendly support group

963 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 12/06/2020 22:41

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" to maintain on the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally"
means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had past diagnosed Eating Disorders or serious MH problems you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, clothes size

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below if you need a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp
Rough Calories for NFD: Mosely TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Goal Weight For BodyFrame
Calc
Body Fat: BFat Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body types ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate]]

Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Units Cals

FD Recipes:
Mosely LowCarb , low carb Diet Doc
BBC Good Food 52 , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Foodie Under 200 Cals
Vegetarian ,

FD Ready Meals, Fast Food

Any Day:
Meal Planner

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.
  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid sugar or fruit juice. e.g. Stir-fries, soups & stews. Ready meals are OK.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

OP posts:
Thread gallery
9
annabell22 · 30/06/2020 08:53

I just watched this which was interesting and entertaining - where does your lost weight go?!

emcla · 30/06/2020 10:07

Good luck moon !

BigChocFrenzy · 30/06/2020 10:12

"can I take painkillers as usual?"

Yes, missfliess

If anyone has MEDS that need to be taken with food in the morning,
then I recommend 800 cal FDs and 3 small meals (as in the BSD)

"I will be running on the streets and on concrete mainly. Long term is this bad for hip and knee joints and my back ?"

emcla You are within healthy BMI, so unless you have joint issues,
then running sounds an excellent idea.

For those who are a few stone (or more) over, I'd suggest walking, cycling, swimming for cardio, until you get nearer healthy BMI

  • but if you are healthy and under 30, even this is probably unnecessarily cautious.

Good luck on your FD, missflies, annabell, emcla, moonlight and any other Tuesday fasters

Sounds like you'll soon have zapped that small regain, moonlight
Try to focus this weekend on healthy 5:2 habits, so you have a good platform to progress next week

Today is my weekly rest day,
because Mondays I do morning BodyStyling & evening Spin classes
and Wednesdays are evening Spin followed by Advanced Lifting - which stretches us all to the limit

So I'll just have a couple of Rhine walks - a nice cool 22C today, instead of the oppressive 30C+

OP posts:
emcla · 30/06/2020 10:28

Thanks bigchoc. Enjoy your rest day.

Sounds like a good plan for your day.

robertsmithscorpsebride · 30/06/2020 10:55

morning everyone.. been AWOL last week, the hot weather gave me no incentive to fast at all! too many cold beers and wine in the sunshine....

Anyway, DH has started with me yesterday so I'm hoping we can egg each other on with it and sticking to plan! Although he gets to eat over 1100 more calories than me a day - rude! Grin

Had a good NFD yesterday and FD#1 today, not had anything but 2 cups of tea yet, got a small tuna steak and veggies for dinner, not too sure yet what to have for lunch, its freezing here (Lancashire) so it might have to be soup in place of salad!

interesting to read your post on exercise bigchoc I have started couch to 5k but as I am at least 2.5 stones overweight, over 45 years old and have arthritis in my knee (and now pain in my ankle) should I be walking rather than trying to run? Confused

NathanNathan · 30/06/2020 11:36

When I say running, I mean lumbering along like an ashmatic sloth wearing wellies

This describes my running style impeccably!

After my extreme crumpets crash last week I was up a couple of pounds, have managed to smash my last two FDs nice and low carb and on target and I seem to be back on track.

MazDazzle · 30/06/2020 12:30

Fasting today. Tried yesterday, but although the day started well, I was ravenous! So I’ve rescheduled it for today instead.

BigChocFrenzy · 30/06/2020 12:40

Well done on getting right back on track, Nathan

Good luck too today maz, robert

That's very helpful when your OH joins in the FDs, Robert
But be prepared that men nearly always lose more quickly on any diet - biology sucks sometimes ! Grin

His 1,100 TDEE advantage is not unusual and gives him a huge FD deficit
he should do 800 FDs, btw being a male with highish TDEE
but even that gives him a significiantly bigger weekly deficit than you would have on 500 cals

OP posts:
emcla · 30/06/2020 12:55

Excellent tip re the coffee bigchoc. I am on a fd but did a 10 min run as a start I’m following the run fat bit** run programme. I walked the rest of the 5 k.

emcla · 30/06/2020 12:56

Good luck maz and Robert

BigChocFrenzy · 30/06/2020 13:24

Good start on your exercise, emcla
You'll be zipping along in a few weeks

OP posts:
inthethickofit19 · 30/06/2020 14:03

Looking for some advice folks

Does this look like im going over on my NFD's ? Have had TOTM bloat during this time too

I've had a fast day Monday and Thursday during these logs

But two weeks later I'm at the same figure Sad

5:2 Thread number 91: Keep calm and carry on to goal with our friendly support group
missfliss · 30/06/2020 17:32

Clocking in for the day at 524 kcals

Lunch: prawn and cucumber

Snack: 1 slice wholemeal toast with tsp peanut butter

Dinner: onion and pepper 2 egg omelette.
Small portion strawberries and grapes
2 almonds

robertsmithscorpsebride · 30/06/2020 19:25

Successful fd done on 503cals Grin

inthethick that is very frustrating, do you not have much to lose? It could be that you are going over tdee, have you mfp'd to check? Or it could just be a plateau and you'll have a whoosh soon if you are not overeating. Hopefully someone who knows what they are talking about can give more advice.

Well done miss

BigChocFrenzy · 30/06/2020 19:26

inthethick I recommend NOT weighing during totm,
because most women have at least 2lb water, sometimes even ½ stone

This makes it too difficult to see trends

The FD following the end of totm should finish releasing this water
==> Weigh on the NFD after that

Only then can we compare to your earlier weight before totm and assess progress

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 30/06/2020 19:31

Oops, not your picture has come up and I see the figures are over a few weeks

So have you been managing 2 FDs per week during this time ?
(missing an occasional one doesn't matter much over the weeks)

I recommend you weigh everything and mfp just for one week
This will not only show total calories each NFD - which you can compare to TDEE -
but also highlight if there is an issue:
hidden calorie bombs, too much sugar, alcohol etc, too large portions of healthy food ....

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 30/06/2020 19:32

Well done on your FD, robert, missfliss
How are the rest of you doing ?

OP posts:
robertsmithscorpsebride · 30/06/2020 19:56

Yes bigchoc I'll be steeling myself for his mammoth weight losses 😡😁

NathanNathan · 30/06/2020 19:58

I have a question about the carbs again, I know we're not counting generally, but for NFDs is it aim for less than 100g carbs per meal or day?

And does this just apply to pasta bread etc rather than veg carbs?

emcla · 30/06/2020 20:00

I’ve changed mine to a mini fd Shock

BigChocFrenzy · 30/06/2020 20:23

Nathan On 5:2 there is no need to count carbs, unless that is your preferred WOL
or if you are transitioning from the BSD / Fast800

5:2 works with low carb, but also with "normal NFDs" / pescatarian / vegetarian / vegan / mediteranean ..... etc

However, excessively large carb portions on NFDs - or too many sugary treats - can hinder weight loss for many people.

I have suggested before for those people that have a problem with keeping to TDEE, or with carbs

  • or with hunger, which is often caused by a carb-heavy diet -

that they stick to a limit of 100g cooked weight of starchy carbs - potato / pasta / rice etc per meal (not the same as 100g carbs !) or 2 slices bread

Do NOT restrict or count carbs for non-starchy veg, i.e. for veg that isn't potato or parsnip
Veg is healthy & low cal, provided it's not smothered in oily / creamy sauce

Unless you are low carbing, I wouldn't bother counting carbs in mfp etc

Note:
Mosely recommends no more than 2 pieces of fruit per day

OP posts:
inthethickofit19 · 30/06/2020 21:37

Thanks @robertsmithscorpsebride

Yes @BigChocFrenzy I've had a Monday and Thursday fd during the last two weeks Sad I had a suspicion I'd been having too many carbs but thought I had balanced the cals out.

I prefer to weigh daily and as I mentioned the other day, I think I get the bloat in the week leading up to TOTM so I would probably have to miss that week out as well as TOTM week. I don't think I can do that because I find daily weigh in is like a reminder to eat mindfully

I also think I seem to struggle after each 3lb loss, it's like a mini set point for me. Is this common? My tdee is 1550 so Theoretically the most I could lose is 3lb a month so I'm not sure if I start to slip by then or if my body just struggles Hmm

NathanNathan · 30/06/2020 21:50

Thank you @BigChocFrenzy I knew I had that wrong but I had it a different way wrong than I thought! Really appreciate it

BigChocFrenzy · 30/06/2020 22:10

You're welcome, Natahan Smile
Ask any time

Inthethick Your weight suggests you are probably already within a healthy BMI
So weight loss will be slower than average

Your table suggests you have either burned off nearly all available fat,
or you are eating back a lot of the FD deficit on your NFDs

In the latter case, you need that week on mfp, to check the NFD intake vs TDEE

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 30/06/2020 22:14

Some people do lose the last 5-6 lb at the rate of 1 lb per month,
which is absolutely OK if that is the rate your body loses over the last stretch

  • in those circs, you just relax
OP posts:
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