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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread number 91: Keep calm and carry on to goal with our friendly support group

963 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 12/06/2020 22:41

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" to maintain on the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally"
means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had past diagnosed Eating Disorders or serious MH problems you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, clothes size

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below if you need a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp
Rough Calories for NFD: Mosely TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Goal Weight For BodyFrame
Calc
Body Fat: BFat Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body types ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate]]

Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Units Cals

FD Recipes:
Mosely LowCarb , low carb Diet Doc
BBC Good Food 52 , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Foodie Under 200 Cals
Vegetarian ,

FD Ready Meals, Fast Food

Any Day:
Meal Planner

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.
  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid sugar or fruit juice. e.g. Stir-fries, soups & stews. Ready meals are OK.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

OP posts:
Thread gallery
9
Upsidedownrightnow · 27/06/2020 08:29

Talking about water retention, how do you know if you have water retention? And how do you get rid of it?

Yesterday I went out for a walk and my hands felt abit swollen and I thought perhaps it was water retention. It could just be the heat as I drink lots and lots of water so it's not due to lack of water. Isn't the best way to get rid of water retention to drink more?

Beautiful3 · 27/06/2020 09:22

Welcome MrsW and Fizzy!

Fizzysours · 27/06/2020 09:31

@Beautiful3 waves

BigChocFrenzy · 27/06/2020 09:48

That's brilliant, Hummus Star
Even more important that your weight after goal is stable
You have good healthy habits and the tools for longterm maintainence

Phew, well over 30C here and the gym won't use air con
(many reports it can spread any virus that is around, when groups of people are indoors)
I've spin class this afternoon and I'll do a session of heavy weights right before

"Isn't the best way to get rid of water retention to drink more?"

Yes, upside it's important to drink plenty of water, or your body may retain even more
and of course water helps cool you down

What also causes water retention is excess carbs and sugar
The body stores about 3g water for every 1g carbs

So check that carb portions are sensible - no more than 100g cooked weight per meal of potato / pasta / rice etc or 2 slices bread
and cut down on sugary treats

OP posts:
Syncope · 27/06/2020 11:10

Hello all, not been around much as work's been busy this week. I like a busy day on FDs though, I don't have time to think about food! Just been reading through and catching up. Well done everyone on both SVs and non SVs. And welcome to all the newbies - I'm still new to this too!

I weighed myself yesterday - lost 3.2 pounds since last week. I suspect a lot of that was water! But it means I've lost just over 11 pounds since starting 5:2 four weeks ago, so I'm delighted. Although I was late home from work last night and we simply couldn't be bothered to cook, so we did have pizza for dinner... Grin

Hope everyone has been coping with the heat? It's much cooler here today, thank goodness.

MadauntofA · 27/06/2020 11:10

That's interesting about the carbs - I didn't realise that Bigchoc. Good luck Saturday fasters.

BigChocFrenzy · 27/06/2020 14:44

Congratulations on your SV, Syncope
excellent progress

OP posts:
NathanNathan · 27/06/2020 15:42

Really interesting about the water retention / carbs. I had a terrible couple of days that I've already moaned about here, which were carb heavy but still well below my TDEE.

Currently up 2.6 pounds, but looking at the grams of carbs I got through and how that might translate to water it makes sense!

Fingers crossed...

missfliss · 27/06/2020 16:46

hello - please may i join? I completed 3 fasts this week, and trying for 3 this week too - then will settle into more of a 5:2 pattern.

I have 1 stone to lose, after losing 3 pounds this first week.

I'd love some tips on what to eat on fast days? thinking small snack and one meal.

So far I have eaten lots of prawns and eggs and spinach leaves...

Fizzysours · 27/06/2020 17:54

@missfliss I am a total newbie....but...do you like tuna, as a whole can in brine is about 150 calories. Just about to have that with salad and hot sauce, which to my utter joy seems not to have any sugar!!!

inthethickofit19 · 27/06/2020 18:31

Great SV's!!

Thanks for that BCF.

I don't know why But I'm eating like there's a food shortage Blush still waiting on TOTM , it's got a lot to answer fo Angry

BigChocFrenzy · 27/06/2020 19:34

Welcome, missfliess 🙂
and congratulations on your SV and first week of fasting.

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 27/06/2020 19:44

MissFliess One of the most important tips is no snacking / grazing between meals, FDs or NFDs

Many people have 2 meals on FDs, one of which can be much smaller than the other
but every FD or NFD meal should contain some protein

e.g. on FDs, you could have small lunch = boiled egg or chicken soup
plus supper = protein & veg

The most important reminder for FDs:
Mosely says no alcohol or junky treats

Useful FD meals:
. stirfries of veg & protein e.g. prawns, chicken, steak
. salads with protein e.g. with egg, salmon, tuna, chicken etc
. omelettes with your choice of veg e.g. mushrooms, spinach, tomato or peppers

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 27/06/2020 19:50

inthethick The hormonal changes around totm usually increase cravings for carby fatty food - which unfortunately are very calorie dense

Filling up on e.g. toast or pasta just starts a spiral of insulin spikes, crashes and more cravings
so watch your carb portions at totm
and try to cut right down on sugary junk, crisps etc

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 27/06/2020 19:52

In your meals, have plenty of protein and add beans / peas / lentils to help stabilise blood sugar

As always, drink plenty of water, especially in this heat

OP posts:
missfliss · 28/06/2020 10:43

Thanks everyone for the welcome and tips. Fasting today and have prawn salad planned for later and bacon / eggs / tomatoes for dinner.

BigChocFrenzy · 28/06/2020 12:41

Good luck, MissFliss
That's a good menu, with plenty of protein to help keep you satisfied

OP posts:
TheOnlyMrsW · 28/06/2020 14:30

Afternoon all! Fairly well-behaved on Friday, homemade spiced lamb chops and lentil daal, less so yesterday as we had Thai takeaway and a couple of glasses of white wine.
Today's plan is roast chicken dinner, although I don't have potatoes but roast other veg for me and happily I'm not a dessert person so DD and DH will have brownies.
I have been keeping on top of water and limiting caffeine to one Nespresso in the morning, scales still stable at 76kg today.
First fast day down for tomorrow, I have a meal plan of boiled egg and a ryvita for brunch, with spiced lentil soup for tea (the remains of the daal watered down) and Greek yoghurt with strawberries after. I don't to want breakfast anyway and I have a really busy day at work planned so hopefully that will help.
Waspie I'm 5'5", so must be a good bit shorter than you. Essential that's an outstanding loss, you must be so proud!

BigChocFrenzy · 28/06/2020 17:05

Good luck tomorrow MrsW on your 1st FD

Looks like a menu which should work for you
A busy day is usually good for an FD (when you're not busy in a litchen !)

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 28/06/2020 17:06

litchen ? (not that tasty) Confused kitchen !

OP posts:
missfliss · 28/06/2020 18:08

well i managed day 4 :-)
also kept busy. Took our son up to a local beauty spot this morning, then caught up with some jobs and sorted through acres of paperwork to make the home office actually usable as a home office (likely to be permanently WAH more i think).
just sat down after tomato / cucumber salad, 2 x bacon, 1 egg, 1 wholemeal toast and a small ramekin of fresh cherries for dinner. feel fine actually!

BigChocFrenzy · 28/06/2020 18:53

Well done, missfliss
That was a useful day of chores too

OP posts:
Librarybooksandacoconut · 28/06/2020 19:29

I’m going to start 5:2 tomorrow. I’ve dabbled a bit in the past, but I’ve never properly stuck to it before. I needed to lose a bit before lockdown anyway, and although I’ve managed to avoid putting on much in the last few months. Now that we haven’t got endless days of nothing at home I think I’ve got a better chance of succeeding.

Tomorrow I’m planning on homemade leek and sweet potato soup and a couple of oatcakes for lunch, and salmon and a salad for dinner. Counted it up on mfp and it comes to 480.

We’re off to the local zoo tomorrow morning (in Scotland so tomorrow is the big opening), but I’m a bit worried about getting through the afternoon as nothing planned the afternoon. I find I get quite short tempered when I’m hungry, which isn’t great with two small dc. Any top tips to keep the hanger at bay?

Beautiful3 · 28/06/2020 21:19

Over ate today, so went on the bike for 2 hours and walked the dog for 40 minutes. Hoping that will help burn it off. Tomorrows my fast day. Hope it goes well.

spatchcock · 29/06/2020 00:06

Morning everyone (from the future, down under). First FD of the week today.

Feeling pretty demotivated - I am 1kg heavier than I was two weeks ago. I am doing well on FDs but obviously not as good as I thought I was on NFDs. Hope to see a change this week.

Have a good week, all!