5:2 Thread number 91: Keep calm and carry on to goal with our friendly support group

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" to maintain on the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally"
means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had past diagnosed Eating Disorders or serious MH problems you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, clothes size

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below if you need a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp
Rough Calories for NFD: Mosely TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Goal Weight For BodyFrame
Calc
Body Fat: BFat Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body types ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate]]

Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Units Cals

FD Recipes:
Mosely LowCarb , low carb Diet Doc
BBC Good Food 52 , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Foodie Under 200 Cals
Vegetarian ,

FD Ready Meals, Fast Food

Any Day:
Meal Planner

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid sugar or fruit juice. e.g. Stir-fries, soups & stews. Ready meals are OK.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

FD today here - glugging down the water. Good luck fellow fasters!

Hi all

Wondering if I could join? I've been wanting to loose weight for ages and never been able to get motivated, then at the beginning of the month I was in hospital for a week with a nasty ovarian infection. A combination of lots and lots of water, appetite suppressed by antibiotics and no alcohol for three weeks plus has meant I've lost 5.5kg and want to keep the momentum up.
I've got the original Fast Diet book so understand the basics but want to keep on track and need some accountability!
Pics attached of progress so far, the dress was yesterday and the other the week before I went in to hospital.
I'm exactly 76kg on the scales this morning and would ideally like to get to 70kg. According to the calculator this is still a BMI of 25.7 but to get under that would take me to 67kg which I just don't think is sustainable even if I could achieve it.
I joined a local gym just before lockdown and go under sufferance to keep DD company and because I know I should but I struggle to exercise otherwise as I just don't enjoy it.
Any tips to stay motivated and on track appreciated, and a kick up the backside when I whinge!!!!!

Good luck Friday fasters! Please make sure you drink loads of water

I always weight more the day after a FD. I think it's water retention as it feels as though I spend most of the following day peeing! The weight fluctuations due to hormones, water retention and so on are why I've started looking at my weight from the time I started this change to my WOL/WOE. As long as the overall trajectory is downwards then I'm happy

LOL spatchcock. I have stopped buying dry roasted and salted nuts at all because then I can't be tempted. As you say, it's totally impossible to eat just one.

Hi MrsW, welcome. I hope you are feeling better now

My BMI is 25.7 currently too. I think you must be a few centimetres shorter than me as I weigh 79Kg currently and I need to get to 76.5Kg to get below 25 BMI. 67Kg seems a bit of a stretch, your target of 70Kg seems far more achievable.

I think what's helped me most is the mantra of "no snacks" and sticking within TDEE on non Fast days. Plus the support of BCF and the rest of the 5:2 crew on this thread, particularly on those days when I've felt a bit low.

Good luck!

Good luck MadAunt

Waspie I find plain almonds or walnuts - no salt or flavourings more controllable
Even then, I measure out the amount first and put the packet straight away !
I usually mix them into something, e.g. a stirfry or flaked almonds in a crepe with berries

Welcome, MrsW 🙂
Many people have started here with a modest goal, then when they reached that have felt able to go onto another target.

Everyone needs some sort of maintenance plan at goal - after any diet - or the weight just comes on again as soon as you resume "normal" eating
e.g. I do 1-2 miniFDs (800-1000 calories) a week and have maintained for several years on 5:2, like several other 5:2 oldtimers.

tips for FDs:

Plan FDs in advance
Prep & plan your FD menu the day before

• and of course stick to the plan, no ad hoc eating

Prep includes weighing out any allowance for milk or sugar into separate pots for the FD - when they're gone, they're gone

Marmite:
Glug down a level teasp (10 calories) mid-morning and / or mid-afternoon (even if you hate it, regard it as medicine !)

Marmite helps avoid headaches because it replenishes salt and other minerals which may be low, especially while your body adapts to fasting

Keep drinking water:
You obtain less water from the reduced food on FDs
So start each day with a glass and keep drinking

Fizzy water is fine, but even diet flavoured fizz can spike insulin, cause headaches & increase appetite in some people
and over time affect gut flora.

Tips for NFDs:
For best results and to form healthier longterm habits, that help in maintenance,
try to keep 5:2 healthy habits on NFDs, even at weekends:

• NHS alcohol limits - daily (max 3 units) & weekly (max 14)
• NEVER snack / graze between meals - eat meals, nothing between
• AIm for a daily eating window of no more than 12 hours, called 12:12 e.g. first meal at 8am and finish last meal by 8pm
• On NFDs, you can have sensible amount of treats (e.g. alcohol, lattes, pies, crisps, sugary treats) BUT only part of a meal, not on their own
• Lots of water & veg each day
• Cut down on fizzy drinks, even diet ones (sparkling UNflavoured water is fine)
• Plenty of sleep

I prefer to weigh daily and I don't worry so much about the peaks and troughs. However I had 4 bad days last week and I thought the 2 FD's would get rid of it. Add in TOTM bloat and it's bad me watching more closely than usual!

BCF can you remind me why diluted juice is not as good as water? Since my pregnancy I struggle with plain water. I'm trying to wean off dilute but find I just drink less then

I think the issue is sweeteners in juice - very few now have no added sweetners and they are bad for your gut bugs in the long term. They also fool your body into expecting sugar calories, so you release insulin.
BCF will provide a much better explanation though!!

New to 5:2!! My second ever day of it tomorrow. The first day...all I thought of was food!!!!

Anyone got any nice lists of 500 cals?

I ate

Breakfast 2 x apples
Lunch 1 boiled egg. Tomato cucumber and lettuce
Dinner 1 chicken breast, salad as above

One white coffee, all others black (yuk)

What do others eat?

Welcome Fizzy! I tend to miss breakfast- just have a black coffee, then a boiled egg with some spinach leaves. Then a larger meal at about 6.30 (decent amount of protein - chicken/ prawns/fish and veg/ salad/. If I spread it out or eat breakfast, I feel hungry especially at night. Some manage to leave it until later and just have 1 meal. Lots of water obviously, and I have about 50cals milk to add to tea.

Sorry - boiled egg at lunch time

I’m done for today at 980 as a mini FD. Not too awful - have just been reading the other threads in weight loss chat. I am relieved I only need to feel restricted 2 days a week.

Things I eat on FDs
Salmon fillet with spinach
2 egg omelettes with mushrooms, spinach / ham / weighed grated cheese
Small fillet steaks
Skinless chicken breast with lettuce and other salad bits
2 scrambled eggs on toasted slice of low cal bread
Tomato salad
Pork medallions with mushrooms
Tuna steaks with spinach, soy and sesame seeds

I'm done as well, just under 500. Looking forward to poached egg on toast tomorrow breakfast!

Kitchen closed at 537. Today seemed to be an easier day! Well done Friday fasters! @Fizzysours I tend to miss breakfast on fast days. I have a salad with a slice of beef or an egg. Then a low calorie dinner.

@BigChocFrenzy @Waspie thank you for the welcome, I feel really good and want to make sure I make the best of (what was at the time) a horrible situation. It's given me the kick up the backside to address a cup of things, my weight being one of them

So my FD's will be Monday and Thursday, it fits in with my work pattern in the event we ever get back to the office, will plan nect week based on this and see how we go 😊

*couple of things!

@MadauntofA thanks for that, it's opened my eyes! I'll try and cut back

Welcome @Fizzysours ! I tend to miss breakfast and lunch and have an early dinner at 4. I'm comfortably hungry by then (lots of water gets me through) plus it's late enough to not need to feel the need to eat again. By eating once I have all 500 cals and tend to have egg based meals:
Omelette
Egg mayo salad sandwich
Boiled eggs on toast

If I don't fancy eggs I'll have whatever dh is having. Always make sure there's enough protein to keep me full overnight. The next morning I usually eat around 10/11 so it doesn't leave me ravenous

I always notice I'm quite tired by 7/8pm on an FD so I cash in on an early night which helps. Oh and brush my teeth ASAP after eating!

Finishes today on 672 calories as I had an apple after dinner.

I miss breakfast then have a low calorie soup or salad for lunch and salmon or small jacket for dinner.

Well done other Friday fasters

Welcome Fizzy 🙂

I recommend having protein at every meal an avoiding fruit-only meals,
so for breakfast you could have e.g. Greek yoghurt, cinammon, a few berries & almond flakes

Most people just have black coffee for breakfast and then either 2 meals or save all their calories for supper

Useful FD meals:
. stirfries of veg & protein e.g. prawns, chicken, steak
. salads with protein e.g. with egg, salmon, tuna, chicken etc
. omelettes with your choice of veg e.g. mushrooms, spinach, tomato or peppers

Well done on your FD / mini, Chic, MadAunt, Beaut, moonlight

Good luck, MrsW
I recommend you start the 5:2 good NFD habits this weekend

Inthethick Mosely recommends against fruit juice because of the concentrated sugar
and the far greater amount of fruit that can be drunk compared to what can be eaten.

We recommend against fruit juice - but not 100% veg juice - on FDs
On NFDs a small juice (< 150 ml) some days should be ok unless you are triggered by sugar
However, that probably wouldn't stretch far over the 2l water I'd recommend drink ing in hot weather
(I drink about 3l atm, but I train quite a bit)

Some people compromise on diet squash on FDs & NFDs too - it's not great, but far better than not drinking enough

and much better than diet Pepsi / Coke, which really are not healthy for kidneys and bones

Welcome MrsW. Sorry to hear you’ve been ill and congrats on your loss so far. You’ve come to the right place to keep on going.

Day 2 of b2b done and dusted. For some reason I always find day 2 easier. I’m never usually hungry after FD. It’s like it resets my appetite. I’m definitely looking forward to eating tomorrow though! We’ve been invited to a bbq and then I’m taking my kids camping.

Enjoy your weekend everyone.

Well done on your b2b, maz
Your sound very expert at that now

Enjoy your bbq tomorrow

Grrrr STS this week despite being ever so good with my food intake. I am clinging onto a hope that it may be water retention in hot weather.

Off for a walk later in lavender fields in the Cotswolds which will be fun anyway.

MrsW I started at 84kg, initial goal was 70kg, I'm now stable at around 60/61kg. I'd have looked at you like you had two two heads if you had told me I could do it. I'd say focus on one goal at a time otherwise the whole thing gets overwhelming.

Wishing everyone a good Saturday. The heat has finally broken here in London, phew. I'm having a coffee with all the windows open and the breeze coming in.

@BigChocFrenzy thank you!!! Second fast day today and feeling positive. Massively nice to have support with this and the advice is great. Happy Saturday everyone. Hurrah for the rain...off for a quick run 🙂🙃🙂